Michael Dubee (pitcher we acquired for Gooch)

[Chipol]

You might argue that we could have gotten a better low level prospect, but a big part of this deal was opening the roster spot. KW could have only traded Gooch for a non-roster player. With half the BP sent down and brought up, plus the injuries, the roster is a problem also.

[KRS1]

Originally Posted by goldglovesox

Below average stuff across the board. Will barely scrape 90 which for relievers is below major league average.

Please, tell us how much of the kid you have seen to make this assesment. If you are basing this on ONE article written about where his velocity was this spring, where everyones velocity is down, then just stop.

http://www.baseballamerica.com/today...ws/264570.html

Dubee is the son of Phillies pitching coach Rich Dubee, which might have made for an awkward moment or two for Phillies general manager Pat Gillick when making this deal. Dubee has pitched well at low Class A Lakewood this season, his first full one in the minors, working in middle relief. He has a knack for pitching and throws strikes with an average to slightly above-average fastball that touches 94 mph. He also throws a changeup and uses his curveball as his out pitch.

That says he has a "slightly above average fastball that touches 94". Certainly doesnt sound "barely scraping 90", and I will take BA's word for it any day over mostly anyone here, especially someone who is so clearly set on poo-pooing this deal. There's even more BA subscirber articles that talk about him, and other mentions confirming that velocity. I dont care for this trade very much either(although, I didnt really expect anything close to a huge return), but at least have proof when you say things as if they were facts. Yes he is a bit old for high-A while not having any truly mind-blowing numbers, but he just made his pro debut last summer, so it's not like it's a terrible pace for him by any means. A couple nice numbers on him that I like are his very nice ground out to fly out frequency. 59 GO compared to 28 others, and 79 ground balls overall compared to 57 other batted balls is nice too.

[California Sox]

Below average stuff or above average stuff, Dubee made his Intimidator debut tonight. 1IP 0H 0R 0BB 3K. Can't do much better than that.

[letsgosox1592]

Originally Posted by California Sox

Below average stuff or above average stuff, Dubee made his Intimidator debut tonight. 1IP 0H 0R 0BB 3K. Can't do much better than that.

Yeah you can do better, get the 3 k's on 9 pitches

[Frater Perdurabo]

Originally Posted by letsgosox1592

Yeah you can do better, get the 3 k's on 9 pitches

Bugs Bunny struck out the side on one pitch.

[goldglovesox]

I use extreme caution when reading Baseball America. You would be amazed at how little they know.

Think about this. They know what everyone INSIDE baseball tells them. People inside the game know this. So why on earth wouldn't they tell the people at Baseball America how good everyone is and try to raise the price a little bit of their own prospects. I will give you two examples, both in the 2002 season. We traded for two prospects RHP Felix Diaz and RHP Jon Adkins. According to Baseball America Adkins threw up to 94 and Diaz "WORKS in the mid-90's" That's 94-96. Felix Diaz did not come close to that when he made his debut with us. He was 88-91 and I never saw Adkins above 92 which means again he WORKS at 87-90. If you wish to see more look at our prospect list in 2001 and 2002. All of the Top Prospects we had were rumored to throw in the mid-90's and in actuality half of them did and the ones that did had no command.

So again Baseball America is really all we have to go by but nevertheless I am very wary of that publication. #1 it has an agenda (gives maximum coverage to those who provide info) and #2 it goes off of what people inside Baseball give them. It is not Bible.

[KRS1]

Originally Posted by goldglovesox

I use extreme caution when reading Baseball America. You would be amazed at how little they know.

Think about this. They know what everyone INSIDE baseball tells them. People inside the game know this. So why on earth wouldn't they tell the people at Baseball America how good everyone is and try to raise the price a little bit of their own prospects. I will give you two examples, both in the 2002 season. We traded for two prospects RHP Felix Diaz and RHP Jon Adkins. According to Baseball America Adkins threw up to 94 and Diaz "WORKS in the mid-90's" That's 94-96. Felix Diaz did not come close to that when he made his debut with us. He was 88-91 and I never saw Adkins above 92 which means again he WORKS at 87-90. If you wish to see more look at our prospect list in 2001 and 2002. All of the Top Prospects we had were rumored to throw in the mid-90's and in actuality half of them did and the ones that did had no command.

So again Baseball America is really all we have to go by but nevertheless I am very wary of that publication. #1 it has an agenda (gives maximum coverage to those who provide info) and #2 it goes off of what people inside Baseball give them. It is not Bible.

My statement was more pointed toward the fact that you straight out said he has "below average stuff across the board", as if it were a fact that you know. Yet you dont cite any source, or have any first hand knowledge of him. I dont read BA like it is the end all be all, but they have been very accurate about a lot of the players they scout. How you say they just collect information from second hand sources is not true. They have scouts and see a lot of the players they talk about first hand, unlike BP and others who simply look at paper and analyze numbers and go off second hand opinions. They have very good partnerships in the scouting community, and even though I have seen more than a few innacurate statements on there, I have found them to be correct much more often than not. Like I said, I'll take their write-ups on him any day over a brief blurb about where the kid was warming up in ST.

[goldglovesox]

You obviously did not read my previous post where I said I did see him. So yes I did see him. And Baseball America does not employ scouts. Writers are not scouts. They go out and speak to other scouts and people inside baseball. All information to people at BA about minor league players is second hand basically. Now amateur stuff they do an excellent job with. But Minor Leagues they are at the mercy of the access provided to them by the organizations. But like I said, its all we have. But trust me you would be surprised at how often they are wrong. But hey just my opinion. Take it for what its worth. But you are right about BP. That is such a narrow view of the game. I do not even read that stuff. Numbers tell half the story.