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  #1  
Old 02-18-2007, 06:08 AM
caulfield12 caulfield12 is offline
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Default These words by KW will be twisted

http://www.suntimes.com/sports/baseb...-sox18.article

into "now KW doesn't want to keep Buehrle, Dye OR Iguchi. They can't afford Iguchi. WHAT?"

Well, now they've added Tad into the soap opera, and they're trying to add Vazquez as well, even though the White Sox still have the rights to his services for 2008.
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  #2  
Old 02-18-2007, 07:25 AM
beck72 beck72 is offline
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Tad should be able to be re-signed to a reasonable contract. 2b is a pretty stocked market. Few teams will overpay for him like they would for JD or Mark.

The sox should start their offer something along the lines of a 2 yr deal worth $10 mill.
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  #3  
Old 02-18-2007, 07:30 AM
dickallen15 dickallen15 is offline
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You can call it whatever you want to call it, but the White Sox have gone from signing guys like Contreras and Garland BEFORE they become free agents to now telling players they "owe it to themselves and their families" to test the market. Considering the amounts of money teams are willing to spend on players, and the record the White Sox have in bidding wars, this advice is akin to saying "goodbye, thank you for your service." It the exact defeatest attitude Williams as said he wants to get rid of on the southside. This team now draws 3,000,000 fans or close to it, have raised ticket prices significantly, and other revenue factors have been raised significantly. Unless Williams has very definitive ideas on where he will spend the money losing these players will free up, this new "attitude" is very puzzling, and not exactly competitive.
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  #4  
Old 02-18-2007, 07:50 AM
UserNameBlank UserNameBlank is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dickallen15 View Post
You can call it whatever you want to call it, but the White Sox have gone from signing guys like Contreras and Garland BEFORE they become free agents to now telling players they "owe it to themselves and their families" to test the market. Considering the amounts of money teams are willing to spend on players, and the record the White Sox have in bidding wars, this advice is akin to saying "goodbye, thank you for your service." It the exact defeatest attitude Williams as said he wants to get rid of on the southside. This team now draws 3,000,000 fans or close to it, have raised ticket prices significantly, and other revenue factors have been raised significantly. Unless Williams has very definitive ideas on where he will spend the money losing these players will free up, this new "attitude" is very puzzling, and not exactly competitive.
I agree. Instead of saying that the players owe it to themselves to get as much as they could get, he could have just said something along the lines of "we think the market is pretty crazy right now and we certainly can't stop our players from exploring it, but we will do our best to make competitive offers to keep the ones who want to stay here once that time comes."

In regard to contract discussions during the season, he could have just said "we don't want our players to be distracted."

KW has a problem picking the right words for delicate situations. So does Ozzie obviously, but at least Ozzie is forthright. He'll either say he likes a player and wants him back or he'll say he's a (insert Nationality here) piece of **** and tell him to worry about playing for the (insert new team here). Kenny isn't supposed to be as emotionally driven as Ozzie with him being the GM. He's supposed to think about what he says before he says it.
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  #5  
Old 02-18-2007, 08:09 AM
UserNameBlank UserNameBlank is offline
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BTW, am I the only one bothered by KW's constant comments about what the fans could/would/might think after a player bolts for FA?

How does KW know what the fans will think? Somehow he thinks that if a Sox player doesn't accept an extension it will be the player that the fans are upset at, not the team. What is he smoking? I don't know of any Sox fan personally that would hate on Mark for not accepting three years of Gil Meche money. If it's me, and the Sox let Mark go without offering at least 13mil/year at like 4 years, I will feel like the Sox dropped the ball and not Mark.

And why is KW bringing Tadahito into these discussions? Why is he dragging him into this? Tadahito is one of the best values out there as far as 2B are concerned, and even if he hits .300 with 20 HRs this year no one will give him more than 7mil tops. The Sox can afford him without having to break their backs.

At first I was in total agreement with KW as far as picking up some young starting pitchers as insurance for the future and building a new, younger bullpen. But now, he is really talking like he doesn't see extending any of these guys as a priority, and even occaisionally talks about them as if they are already out the door. Now I'm no major league GM, but I highly doubt recommending free agency to all-star level players is going to set a great example to fans and future potential free agents. If I was a player and I wanted to come back, but the club that I played for didn't look at my re-signing as important enough to warrant in-season negotiations, I'd say screw that team and leave.

Thanks, Kenny. I just hope the Kids Can Play in 2008.

EDIT: Something else to add...

Look at Zambrano with the Cubs, or Aramis Ramirez, again with the Cubs. Some players come right out and voice their frustrations. They say exactly what they think they are worth and make demands of their teams' front offices. How many times have we heard Buehrle or Dye or now Iguchi come out and make some demand about the Sox re-signing them? None, because these guys have class and IMO are more deserving of respect than some other players out there. Mark didn't even bring the money thing up, it was KW who started running him mouth in the papers again. I hate to sound so negative, but I can't see this situation ending in any other way than another Frank Thomas/Maggs situation, and I really don't want to have to listen to that every time a franchise level player is let go.

Last edited by UserNameBlank; 02-18-2007 at 08:20 AM.
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  #6  
Old 02-18-2007, 08:24 AM
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BTW, am I the only one bothered by KW's constant comments about what the fans could/would/might think after a player bolts for FA?
Yes.
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  #7  
Old 02-18-2007, 08:35 AM
Tragg Tragg is online now
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We're going to have a lot of openings soon.

We have to replace JD's production (or re-sign him) - that won't be easy.
Maybe Crede (I have no idea when his contract expires - I've read after this year and other years).
We'll need a lead-off hitter.
And we'll lose a couple of pitchers over the next couple of years.
What about SS? 2B?

At least in pitching, it LOOKS like we have several close to ML ready. I don't see a JD replacement anywhere in the high minors.

This is the top of the market (or last off-season was) for pitchers; I can't blame KW for not throwing Zito money at MB. Perhaps FA or signing money is best spent elsewhere.
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  #8  
Old 02-18-2007, 08:49 AM
caulfield12 caulfield12 is offline
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It's frustrating that KW is more concerned with PR "spin" than signing Mark right now. I think he feels that the White Sox fanbase is more "blue collar" and will turn on MB for turning down a contract that pays more than $10 million per season.

Most White Sox fans (I would say 85%), knowing the market out there, are not going to blame MB for leaving or being greedy. The whole 3 year thing has been repeated so often...so when he signs a 4-6 year deal with another team, nobody will be surprised.

I hope we don't end up moving Cintron or Uribe over to 2B to replace Iguchi...but I can see that happening. Or Ozuna. Not Mackowiak, I hope.

Getz isn't close to ready yet.
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  #9  
Old 02-18-2007, 09:07 AM
Vernam Vernam is offline
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Originally Posted by UserNameBlank View Post
Look at Zambrano with the Cubs, or Aramis Ramirez, again with the Cubs. Some players come right out and voice their frustrations. They say exactly what they think they are worth and make demands of their teams' front offices. How many times have we heard Buehrle or Dye or now Iguchi come out and make some demand about the Sox re-signing them? None, because these guys have class and IMO are more deserving of respect than some other players out there.
It's true that our guys are more deserving of megabucks than that piece of **** Ramirez, who can't be troubled to run out his grounders and flies. It'll hurt if I see Buehrle, Jermaine, or any of the 2005 team (okay, not Willie Harris ) in another uniform, because of how they've conducted themselves. But that is just NOT a sound reason to overpay to keep them, moving forward.

Buehrle rolled the dice by turning down the Sox offer, and it looks like he'll reap the rewards. But if he leaves after another mediocre-to-horrible season, I'll breathe a sigh of relief that we aren't on the hook for 3 or, fer cryin' out loud, 5 years at whatever obscene figure it would take to keep him here. The whole argument that KW has plenty of revenue to keep these guys is short-sighted. As a STH, I'm not wild about the prospect of watching aging talent locked into long-term deals, struggling to recapture the glory of 2005. IOW, I'm glad they're not trying to buy my affection. Let's take our shot this year, and if it doesn't work out, I'm ready for the necessary retooling.

Hell, even if they DO win it all again, I'm not sure KW shouldn't make major changes for 2008. That's the business, and if I have the choice between a GM with deep pockets and one with moxy, I'll take the latter every time. Thank god the Sox aren't throwing their money around to prove how much they love us.

For comparison, I wonder if Twins fans are bitching and moaning because the team probably won't re-sign Torii Hunter. If the Sox' strategy is going to work in the long haul, we need to start doing a much better job of developing our own talent, the way the Minnesota does. The lack of big-time prospects -- and even average prospects who play tough, fundamental baseball -- is what's putting real pressure on Kenny, more than the media and fans are.

Vernam
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  #10  
Old 02-18-2007, 09:11 AM
Frontman Frontman is offline
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I got to be honest, I don't see 'the plan' of KW like I did in 2006. 2006 we said goodbye to Frank, Carl, and El Duque. We brought in Vazquez, who replaced El Duque. We traded Rowand for Thome, thinking Anderson was MLB ready (and in the field, he was. At the plate, not so much.)

But this season, I'm scratching my head. I have a feeling the Sox have soured on Mark for whatever reason (listening to White Sox weekly yesterday, I forget the assistant GM's name, but his comment "We've dealt with the Cardinals hat issue yearly" sounded almost bitter.) Maybe its just me, but I have a feeling Mark's days on the Southside are numbered.

Crede I'm not as worried about, as it seems every off season its talk of Crede leaving, then another year is offered, he takes it. Dye, man; that's a huge pickle of a sitch. I can understand him wanting a big payoff (hell, the chants of "MVP, MVP, MVP" from us fans support that) but a long term deal for him? That can be a major quandry, as he's getting older, and how long can he perform at a MVP level of play?

Funny, at the end of last year, starting pitching and the bullpen concerned me. I'm still concerned about the starters (especially without a defined 5th starter) but the 'pen seems to be the least of our worries.

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  #11  
Old 02-18-2007, 09:16 AM
ozzie is god ozzie is god is offline
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The Sox will never give a pitcher more than 3 years so really have no chance to sign Buehrle next year. I hate to say it but trade him the the Redbirds for Wainwright and rebuild this rotation now. When Lilly gets 10 mildo for 5 years Buehrle gets 13 easy if he has a decent year.
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  #12  
Old 02-18-2007, 09:20 AM
UserNameBlank UserNameBlank is offline
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Originally Posted by Vernam View Post
It's true that our guys are more deserving of megabucks than that piece of **** Ramirez, who can't be troubled to run out his grounders and flies. It'll hurt if I see Buehrle, Jermaine, or any of the 2005 team (okay, not Willie Harris ) in another uniform, because of how they've conducted themselves. But that is just NOT a sound reason to overpay to keep them, moving forward.

Buehrle rolled the dice by turning down the Sox offer, and it looks like he'll reap the rewards. But if he leaves after another mediocre-to-horrible season, I'll breathe a sigh of relief that we aren't on the hook for 3 or, fer cryin' out loud, 5 years at whatever obscene figure it would take to keep him here. The whole argument that KW has plenty of revenue to keep these guys is short-sighted. As a STH, I'm not wild about the prospect of watching aging talent locked into long-term deals, struggling to recapture the glory of 2005. IOW, I'm glad they're not trying to buy my affection. Let's take our shot this year, and if it doesn't work out, I'm ready for the necessary retooling.

Hell, even if they DO win it all again, I'm not sure KW shouldn't make major changes for 2008. That's the business, and if I have the choice between a GM with deep pockets and one with moxy, I'll take the latter every time. Thank god the Sox aren't throwing their money around to prove how much they love us.

For comparison, I wonder if Twins fans are bitching and moaning because the team probably won't re-sign Torii Hunter. If the Sox' strategy is going to work in the long haul, we need to start doing a much better job of developing our own talent, the way the Twins do. The lack of big-time prospects -- and even average prospects who play great, fundamental baseball -- is what's putting real pressure on Kenny, more than the media and fans.

Vernam
I agree with all of this, but in Buehrle's case especially it is very different. Isn't Mark 27 this year? If he bounces back this year there is no reason to think he won't as solid as any other pitcher out there, and he is just now enetering his prime. He doesn't throw extremely hard and he doesn't have some crazy delivery. He is about as safe of a bet as you can get, AND he's already talked about taking a hometown discount.

As far as overpaying, again, we're not talking about overpaying for a Lily or Meche or something. Unfortunately for the Sox, depending on Mark's 2007, he is now a 13-15mil pitcher. That is his market value, and anything below that is underpaying. If the Sox don't think he's worth that then it is a horrible time to be a Sox fan IMO, because if Mark isn't worth that than no one out there is. And that means we'll get some has been fifth starter again or have some kid out there who belongs in Triple A.

Dye is one thing, but IMO the Sox need another power bat. Thome is 37 IIRC and isn't going to get any healthier, and at his age you have to think that he is certainly going to find himself out or at least bothered by nagging injuries before his contract is over. If Thome goes down and we only have Konerko, we're screwed. If KW gets an Andruw Jones it will be one thing, but if he doesn't get another bat and lets Dye go it will pretty much be an concession of the AL Central before the season even starts.

Iguchi would be easier to replace in the FA/trade market, but again, his salary isn't going to be breaking anyone's back. If the Sox can afford to pay millions to Cintron, Mack, and Hall on the bench then at the very least they can afford Iguchi with a weaker bench.
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  #13  
Old 02-18-2007, 09:22 AM
Vernam Vernam is offline
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But this season, I'm scratching my head. I have a feeling the Sox have soured on Mark for whatever reason (listening to White Sox weekly yesterday, I forget the assistant GM's name, but his comment "We've dealt with the Cardinals hat issue yearly" sounded almost bitter.) Maybe its just me, but I have a feeling Mark's days on the Southside are numbered.
Front, I heard that interview with assistant GM Rick Hahn, but my interpretation was very different. He said the team is used to hearing the BS about Buehrle wanting to be a Cardinal, and the issue has always been blown out of proportion. He didn't express anything but respect for MB, from what I could tell.

The red hat is easy to focus on, but the real reasons they probably won't re-sign him are a.) five-year deals for pitchers are basically foolish, b.) even at his best, MB probably isn't worth $15M per year, five years or not, and c.) in 2006, he pitched like someone who could struggle to be a fifth starter in the AL Central.

Vernam
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Old 02-18-2007, 09:37 AM
soxtalker soxtalker is offline
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It's an interesting approach. It looks like the market is changing so rapidly that KW is telling the players to test the waters to establish their market value. Also, while he doesn't have the same constraints in terms of years with position players as with pitchers, Iguchi and Dye may be old enough that KW doesn't feel comfortable offering the kinds of deals that they think they may be able to get on the open market.

I don't read the comments about keeping Buerhle's contract offer quiet so much as "spin". Rather, KW seems to be trying very hard to maintain friendly relations with the players. That's got to be difficult to do, as the uncertainty of the situation will weigh on both the players and the team. It sounds like he wants to leave the option of making offers next year open, and he surely wants them to play well this season.
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Old 02-18-2007, 09:39 AM
itsnotrequired itsnotrequired is offline
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Originally Posted by dickallen15 View Post
You can call it whatever you want to call it, but the White Sox have gone from signing guys like Contreras and Garland BEFORE they become free agents to now telling players they "owe it to themselves and their families" to test the market. Considering the amounts of money teams are willing to spend on players, and the record the White Sox have in bidding wars, this advice is akin to saying "goodbye, thank you for your service." It the exact defeatest attitude Williams as said he wants to get rid of on the southside. This team now draws 3,000,000 fans or close to it, have raised ticket prices significantly, and other revenue factors have been raised significantly. Unless Williams has very definitive ideas on where he will spend the money losing these players will free up, this new "attitude" is very puzzling, and not exactly competitive.
But is this really the situation? The Sox offered Contreras and Garland deals and they took them before the latest round of free agency lunacy. They certainly could have declined and walked. It has now been revealed that the Sox offered Buehrle an extension and he declined it. The offere appears to be on par with the Garland and Contreras deals. Do we know for a fact that Dye hasn't been offered something and he declined? How does this demonstrate that Williams has a "new attitude"? I'm not putting too much faith in media reports or even what Williams says in public.
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