Harold Baines and the Hall of Fame

[jortafan]

Am I the only one who’s disgusted with the vote total received Tuesday by Harold Baines?

It’s not like I expected him to get 75 percent. But to come within one vote of being knocked off the ballot entirely for future years? That’s just ridiculous.

Personally, I bop back and forth mentally about whether Harold belongs in Cooperstown. Despite the significant career stats, I can see where some people could think that Baines was never a dominant enough player during his era. Let’s be honest -- the presence of Harold didn’t stop some of those White Sox teams from the 1980s (particularly the latter part of the decade) from being dreadful.

If I had a Hall of Fame ballot, I probably could have been persuaded to give a vote to Baines. Of course, I also would have voted for Andre Dawson just so I could see all the Cubs fans choke in disgust when his bronze plaque immortalized him as a Montreal Expo (he did play there for 10 seasons).

For those who have a problem with the designated hitter, I think they need to get over it. It is a fully legitimate position in modern-day baseball. Besides, Harold was a fully legitimate outfielder for several seasons until his knee problems cropped up in the mid-1980s. It’s not like we’re talking about Edgar Martinez, who became a DH because he was never good enough to play a defensive position in the major leagues.

Yet somehow, I expect Martinez will manage to get considerably more respect when he gets on the Hall of Fame ballot in 2010.

And for those who think it would have made a difference if Harold could have got another 134 regular season base hits (to reach the magic number of 3,000 for his career), I don’t think it matters. I honestly believe there are a number of people with ballots who would have gladly made Harold the first player with 3,000 career hits to not make the Hall of Fame.

In closing, I would hope the attitude could change during upcoming years and Harold can manage to get respectable vote totals in the future. Who knows -- maybe a future version of the Veterans Committee will look more favorably on Baines and he’ll actually get inducted into the Hall?

I’d hate to see Harold suffer the fate of Fernando Valenzuela, who in 2002 barely got enough votes to stay on the ballot for a second try – only to get knocked off for good in 2003.

[A. Cavatica]

Originally Posted by jortafan

Am I the only one who’s disgusted with the vote total received Tuesday by Harold Baines?

It’s not like I expected him to get 75 percent. But to come within one vote of being knocked off the ballot entirely for future years? That’s just ridiculous.

Personally, I bop back and forth mentally about whether Harold belongs in Cooperstown. Despite the significant career stats, I can see where some people could think that Baines was never a dominant enough player during his era. Let’s be honest -- the presence of Harold didn’t stop some of those White Sox teams from the 1980s (particularly the latter part of the decade) from being dreadful.

If I had a Hall of Fame ballot, I probably could have been persuaded to give a vote to Baines. Of course, I also would have voted for Andre Dawson just so I could see all the Cubs fans choke in disgust when his bronze plaque immortalized him as a Montreal Expo (he did play there for 10 seasons).

For those who have a problem with the designated hitter, I think they need to get over it. It is a fully legitimate position in modern-day baseball. Besides, Harold was a fully legitimate outfielder for several seasons until his knee problems cropped up in the mid-1980s. It’s not like we’re talking about Edgar Martinez, who became a DH because he was never good enough to play a defensive position in the major leagues.

Yet somehow, I expect Martinez will manage to get considerably more respect when he gets on the Hall of Fame ballot in 2010.

And for those who think it would have made a difference if Harold could have got another 134 regular season base hits (to reach the magic number of 3,000 for his career), I don’t think it matters. I honestly believe there are a number of people with ballots who would have gladly made Harold the first player with 3,000 career hits to not make the Hall of Fame.

In closing, I would hope the attitude could change during upcoming years and Harold can manage to get respectable vote totals in the future. Who knows -- maybe a future version of the Veterans Committee will look more favorably on Baines and he’ll actually get inducted into the Hall?

I’d hate to see Harold suffer the fate of Fernando Valenzuela, who in 2002 barely got enough votes to stay on the ballot for a second try – only to get knocked off for good in 2003.

Harold was one of my favorite players, but regrettably, he fell just short of my standard. A career average of .289 with 384 homers, never finishing higher than 9th in the MVP voting...that's not a HoF career.

[rdivaldi]

If Tony Perez is a Hall of Famer, Harold Baines is a Hall of Famer. I am disgusted with the amount of votes he received especially when you see how many votes that Andre Dawson recieved. The HOF voting is a joke.

[ondafarm]

Originally Posted by rdivaldi

The HOF voting is a joke.

Can't disagree.

[AJ Hellraiser]

Originally Posted by rdivaldi

If Tony Perez is a Hall of Famer, Harold Baines is a Hall of Famer. I am disgusted with the amount of votes he received especially when you see how many votes that Andre Dawson recieved. The HOF voting is a joke.

I am a lifelong White Sox fan and hate the Cubs just as much, if not more, than most people here.. especially since I am from the Northwest suburbs and ALL my friends are Cubs fans...

that all being said, the one Cubs player I always loved to watch is Andre Dawson... in my mind, he is a HOFer and was a better player than Harold Baines and it wasn't even close... Dawson won an MVP, had 438 career HR's and stole over 300 bases.. he was also a true 5-tool ballplayer and if the turf in Montreal hadn't ruined his knees his numbers would be much better...

Sorry, but in my mind I don't think you should be comparing Baines and the Hawk...

[goofymsfan]

Originally Posted by jortafan

For those who have a problem with the designated hitter, I think they need to get over it. It is a fully legitimate position in modern-day baseball. Besides, Harold was a fully legitimate outfielder for several seasons until his knee problems cropped up in the mid-1980s. It’s not like we’re talking about Edgar Martinez, who became a DH because he was never good enough to play a defensive position in the major leagues.

Yet somehow, I expect Martinez will manage to get considerably more respect when he gets on the Hall of Fame ballot in 2010.

You obviously don't know much about Edgar then. When he first came up he was a third baseman and even won a batting title while playing there. It wasn't until he had leg troubles that he became a DH.

It's not a sure thing that Edgar will get in and probably not on the first try if he does eventually get in. There are still too many among the people that get to cast a vote that are against the DH as a position. The one thing Edgar has going for him is that he does have the DH award named after him.

[WhiteSox5187]

If Jim Rice can get up to 63.5% of the HOF vote, so should Baines. I don't think Baines is a first ballot Hall of Famer, but I think he is a LEGITMATE candidate (guys like Tommy John are not, they're good but not great). I think he will eventually get up to getting into the hall (look forward to '08, if Goose doesn't get in, they should just close the place down) but whether or not he ever gets in I go back and forth on.

[spawn]

I may piss some people off with this, but if Jim Rice and Andre Dawson are much more deserving of HOF status that Harold. I was a big Harold Baines fan...but I really don't think he's a Hall of Famer...

[Huisj]

The number for Baines that stands out to me is RBI. He's 23rd all time. Take a look at this list of names ahead of him in that stat, and it's pretty remarkable. They are all undisputed Hall of Famers except Bonds and Palmeiro.

[rdivaldi]

Originally Posted by AJ Hellraiser

that all being said, the one Cubs player I always loved to watch is Andre Dawson... in my mind, he is a HOFer and was a better player than Harold Baines and it wasn't even close... Dawson won an MVP, had 438 career HR's and stole over 300 bases.. he was also a true 5-tool ballplayer and if the turf in Montreal hadn't ruined his knees his numbers would be much better...

Sorry, but in my mind I don't think you should be comparing Baines and the Hawk...

Oh puh-lease. When you compare Baines and Dawson's numbers they're very similar. The only thing Baines doesn't have is the Cubbie over-hyping machine working for him. Take a look:

Baines / Dawson
Games: 2830 / 2627
AB: 9908 / 9927
R: 1299 / 1373
H: 2866 / 2774
2B: 488 / 503
3B: 49 / 98
HR: 384 / 438
RBI: 1628 / 1591
SB: 34 / 314
BB: 1062 / 589
K: 1062 / 1509
BA: .289 / .279
OBP: .356 / .323
OPS: .820 / .805

Are you telling me that one of these guys is more deserving of the HOF than another. I think not. More evidence of the utter BS of media bias when it comes to HOF voting.

[AuroraSoxFan]

Originally Posted by AJ Hellraiser

I am a lifelong White Sox fan and hate the Cubs just as much, if not more, than most people here.. especially since I am from the Northwest suburbs and ALL my friends are Cubs fans...

that all being said, the one Cubs player I always loved to watch is Andre Dawson... in my mind, he is a HOFer and was a better player than Harold Baines and it wasn't even close... Dawson won an MVP, had 438 career HR's and stole over 300 bases.. he was also a true 5-tool ballplayer and if the turf in Montreal hadn't ruined his knees his numbers would be much better...

Sorry, but in my mind I don't think you should be comparing Baines and the Hawk...

I can't disagree. always hated the Cubs. But as a kid learning to play the game it was cool watching the Hawk. Used to love when a guy would hit a base hit to right and trot to 1st all slowly and Hawk would gun him out at 1st. Showed a lot of kids (and likely a lot of his peers) to play hard and not take stuff for granted.

I was mad that Baines only got 5.3% of the votes. I did not expect him to join Cal and Tony, but that was pathetic. I can't see how guys like Goose, Baines, Rice etc are left out of Cooperstown. Besides Gwynn and Rip, the only positive point of the ballot totals IMO was the awful result given to McGwire.

[AuroraSoxFan]

Originally Posted by rdivaldi

Oh puh-lease. When you compare Baines and Dawson's numbers they're very similar. The only thing Baines doesn't have is the Cubbie over-hyping machine working for him. Take a look:

Baines / Dawson
Games: 2830 / 2627
AB: 9908 / 9927
R: 1299 / 1373
H: 2866 / 2774
2B: 488 / 503
3B: 49 / 98
HR: 384 / 438
RBI: 1628 / 1591
SB: 34 / 314
BB: 1062 / 589
K: 1062 / 1509
BA: .289 / .279
OBP: .356 / .323
OPS: .820 / .805

Are you telling me that one of these guys is more deserving of the HOF than another. I think not. More evidence of the utter BS of media bias when it comes to HOF voting.

Those stats are pretty damn close. On those numbers alone you really can't say that 1 is more/less deserving than the other. But on top of the tribune and it's hype given to their former emps, defense is a big factor that separates them in votes. Hawk had some gold gloves (8) under his belt.

[rdivaldi]

Originally Posted by AuroraSoxFan

Those stats are pretty damn close. On those numbers alone you really can't say that 1 is more/less deserving than the other. But on top of the tribune and it's hype given to their former emps, defense is a big factor that separates them in votes. Hawk had some gold gloves (8) under his belt.

Gold gloves should not give one player 309 compared to 29. That's absolute BS. This is media bias at its finest. Look at Don Mattingly's ridiculous 54 votes. The guy barely got 2000 hits to go with his massive 222 homers. Complete garbage. Thanks to the Trib and Sun-Times for metioning this today. Oh wait.............

[Foulke You]

Originally Posted by rdivaldi

Oh puh-lease. When you compare Baines and Dawson's numbers they're very similar. The only thing Baines doesn't have is the Cubbie over-hyping machine working for him. Take a look:

Baines / Dawson
Games: 2830 / 2627
AB: 9908 / 9927
R: 1299 / 1373
H: 2866 / 2774
2B: 488 / 503
3B: 49 / 98
HR: 384 / 438
RBI: 1628 / 1591
SB: 34 / 314
BB: 1062 / 589
K: 1062 / 1509
BA: .289 / .279
OBP: .356 / .323
OPS: .820 / .805

Are you telling me that one of these guys is more deserving of the HOF than another. I think not. More evidence of the utter BS of media bias when it comes to HOF voting.

Those numbers are very telling. I'm in full agreement that Baines is deserving of more consideration for the HOF than he is currently getting but he has two giant albatrosses around his neck. 75% of his career he played as a DH and it has a stigma attached to it with baseball writers for some reason. They don't even vote for DH David Ortiz for MVP even though the guy's offensive numbers are ridiculous. The other thing holding Harold down was that he had his best years with the White Sox, a team that the national writers have a habit of ignoring when we're not storming our way to a World Series title. These two factors will sadly keep Harold out of the hall.

Harold also won't be the first White Sox player either to be overlooked for the hall. Billy Pierce and Minnie Minoso didn't get in despite having worthy numbers. It took Nellie Fox WAY too long to get elected and it happened after he died. Fisk at least had the Boston factor to help him get in. The main thing that hurts Bert Blyleven's HOF is that he played in Minnesota for his whole career. It's sad but the HOF voting has turned into a big popularity contest it seems.

[rdivaldi]

Originally Posted by Foulke You

It's sad but the HOF voting has turned into a big popularity contest it seems.

To go along with the All-Star, Cy Young, and MVP voting. It's complete BS.