White Sox Interactive Forums
Sox Clubhouse
 Soxogram: 
Congratulations on the Rookie records for HR and RBI in April, Jose!

Welcome
Go Back   White Sox Interactive Forums > Baseball Discussions > Sox Clubhouse
Home Chat Stats Register Blogs FAQ Calendar Mark Forums Read


Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #151  
Old 08-16-2006, 11:02 AM
kitekrazy kitekrazy is offline
Banned
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Posts: 2,023
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by MeteorsSox4367
The fan who touched the ball Anderson hit down the line should have been given the choice of his being removed bodily or having his hands cuffed behind his back. Way to kill your team's momentum, Einstein.
This is a very frightening statement. Heaven help us if we resemble Cub fans.
The Sox had other opportunities to win.
Reply With Quote
  #152  
Old 08-16-2006, 11:14 AM
batmanZoSo batmanZoSo is offline
Banned
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Machu Picchu
Posts: 13,780
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ol' No. 2
They can and do quite often. It's human nature to remember only the times runners get thrown out, but how many other runs would they not have scored if Cora was more conservative? Remember, the next hitter makes an out 70% of the time. As long as the chances of the fielders executing that play perfectly is less than that, it's a good gamble. Sometimes you win those gambles and sometimes you lose, but trust me, you don't want a third base coach who NEVER gets runners thrown out.
But is it necessary to be that aggressive against the Royals? I mean yeah, obviously we were hard up for runs last night, but at the time they had no problem hitting Hernandez with ease. Konerko even led off the next inning with a single. That play took a lot of steam out of the Sox engine last night, that's obvious. Overall, it pays to be aggressive, but that was just stupid.
Reply With Quote
  #153  
Old 08-16-2006, 11:20 AM
ShoelessJoeS ShoelessJoeS is offline
WSI Church Elder
 
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Schaumburg, IL
Posts: 3,660
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by batmanZoSo
But is it necessary to be that aggressive against the Royals? I mean yeah, obviously we were hard up for runs last night, but at the time they had no problem hitting Hernandez with ease. Konerko even led off the next inning with a single. That play took a lot of steam out of the Sox engine last night, that's obvious. Overall, it pays to be aggressive, but that was just stupid.
IMO, the play that took the steam out of the Sox was Teahen's 2-run homer in the bottom half of the inning after we had just tied it up in the top half.
__________________
Reply With Quote
  #154  
Old 08-16-2006, 11:32 AM
batmanZoSo batmanZoSo is offline
Banned
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Machu Picchu
Posts: 13,780
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by ShoelessJoeS
IMO, the play that took the steam out of the Sox was Teahen's 2-run homer in the bottom half of the inning after we had just tied it up in the top half.
That didn't help, but I look at the play that after which our offense went silent against Runelvys Hernandez of all people.
Reply With Quote
  #155  
Old 08-16-2006, 12:09 PM
kevin57 kevin57 is offline
WSI Personality
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Chicago
Posts: 919
Default

The bottom line to the Sox loss was not putting hits together. They did have eight hits but there were 3 or 4 double plays that completely ruined any momentum.

The bush league defense was maddening. Where was Dye and Konerko last night. Must have been having marital problems.

Vasquez, yes, was annoying, but we should be able to overcome 3 earned runs with these bats.
__________________
My '08 Record at the Cell

1-1
Reply With Quote
  #156  
Old 08-16-2006, 12:32 PM
1917 1917 is offline
WSI Personality
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Posts: 956
Default

Yes Javy 6th inning meltdowns are annoying, BUT in the last 3 he did (DET, MINN, and last night) our bats seem to collapse as well after the 6th.....
Reply With Quote
  #157  
Old 08-16-2006, 12:44 PM
Ol' No. 2's Avatar
Ol' No. 2 Ol' No. 2 is offline
WSI High Priest
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: Bullpen Sports Bar
Posts: 11,663
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by batmanZoSo
But is it necessary to be that aggressive against the Royals? I mean yeah, obviously we were hard up for runs last night, but at the time they had no problem hitting Hernandez with ease. Konerko even led off the next inning with a single. That play took a lot of steam out of the Sox engine last night, that's obvious. Overall, it pays to be aggressive, but that was just stupid.
The question is, obviously, the right level of aggressiveness. It's a careful balance, and I don't have any problem with being more aggressive with two outs in a tie game. Becoming more conservative might get you fewer runners thrown out, but it will also cost you runs that you would have scored otherwise. As I said, the next hitter has a 70% chance of making an out. The defense has to make two good throws to get you. As long as the chances of that happening are less than 70%, it's a good gamble. Also, when the defense knows you're going to run aggressively, they will tend to rush throws, and errors become more likely, so it also has a secondary effect on other plays.

With no outs or one out, sending Iguchi would have absolutely been the wrong thing to do. But with two outs, he's a hell of a lot more likely to die on 3rd than he is to score. Even with a good gamble you're going to lose some percentage of the time, but that doesn't make it a bad bet.
__________________

19 seasons, 9232 AB, 216 SO
Reply With Quote
  #158  
Old 08-16-2006, 12:55 PM
samram's Avatar
samram samram is offline
Banned
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: Charlotte, NC
Posts: 6,548
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by batmanZoSo
That didn't help, but I look at the play that after which our offense went silent against Runelvys Hernandez of all people.
Yeah. Normally, if you tell Runelvys Hernandez you're going to get him four runs of support, he'll say "Well then, you're going to lose by at least three, if not several more, runs." Not last night, unfortunately.
Reply With Quote
  #159  
Old 08-16-2006, 12:58 PM
soxinem1 soxinem1 is offline
WSI High Priest
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: Born and raised on the SW Side.....
Posts: 5,091
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Baby Fisk
Most times it's great to watch Sox fans NOT interfering with plays, because in the heat of the moment the temptation to reach out and grab the ball must be very strong.

This guy succumbed to the temptation. Now he can tell people that he not only interfered with a play and got tossed (presumably, although it also looked like he was running away before security got down to his seat), but he can ALSO be proud of having blown an easy grounder in front of a live TV audience. Nice leather, Buckner!
I was there last night and saw it all. but I have to note, he was not a Sox fan, he was a

BANDWAGON JUMPER!!!!!
__________________

'We drafted him... He achieved greatness here... A 2-time MVP, and one of the BEST hitters in MLB history... And soon he will wear a White Sox uniform again... On his Hall of Fame plaque. He's #35, Frank Thomas!
Reply With Quote
  #160  
Old 08-16-2006, 01:08 PM
viagracat viagracat is offline
2008 Winner Pre-Season Prediction Contest
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: Elgin, IL--"The City to Watch!"
Posts: 3,024
Post

[quote=SoxFan78]First of all, to all the people blaming Cora for sending Iguchi, JUST STOP! That was a phenomenal relay from Grudaasdirunwelkaserjnlk to the catcher. It took a perfect throw to get Iguchi out. Im glad Cora sent Iguchi, it put the pressure on the defense to make a perfect play, and they did.

And if Iguchi would of stayed on third, it wasn't a guarantee that they would of scored.

***

Thank you. I was waiting for a reasonable response to the Iguchi play. It took a near-perfect relay to get him. You have to send him in those situations. If Cora hadn't sent him and Iguchi died on third, people would've been wondering what happened to Cora's stones.

But seriously, three out of four even vs KC is all you can reasonably expect. Four game sweeps are rare. That said, this does mean wins tonight and tomorrow are important.
__________________
The 'Cat: WINNER of the 2008 Pre-Season Prediction Contest
Reply With Quote
  #161  
Old 08-16-2006, 01:11 PM
batmanZoSo batmanZoSo is offline
Banned
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Machu Picchu
Posts: 13,780
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by samram
Yeah. Normally, if you tell Runelvys Hernandez you're going to get him four runs of support, he'll say "Well then, you're going to lose by at least three, if not several more, runs." Not last night, unfortunately.
Yeesh. Not a confident guy at all. Is it any wonder why he lacks success?
Reply With Quote
  #162  
Old 08-16-2006, 01:34 PM
JB98's Avatar
JB98 JB98 is offline
WSI Guru
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Crystal Lake, IL
Posts: 27,464
Default

I was thinking this morning, every time the Sox have a bad defensive game, it seems like everything else falls apart as well. The pitchers implode, and the hitters start trying to get it all back with one swing.

Boy, we had some rotten at-bats last night. All Hernandez had to do was flip that ****ty breaking ball up there down-and-away and watch us make weak swing after weak swing. Hernandez went through our lineup three times, and he must have gotten 20-25 swings at breaking balls that were out of the zone.

We were very disciplined when we clobbered Hernandez in Kansas City. I was at that game, and the guys did a great job of waiting him out. Against Minnesota, Hernandez walked nine in 4 2/3 innings. That had to be in our scouting report. But the Sox hitters swung the bats like their cars were double parked outside the stadium last night. No patience, no discipline. Greg Walker must have lost his lunch watching that from the dugout. Our hitters forgot the reasons we've been successful against Hernandez in the past. We're talking about a pitcher who simply cannot throw three strikes before he throws four balls. Man, that was a bad loss.
Reply With Quote
  #163  
Old 08-16-2006, 01:43 PM
Ol' No. 2's Avatar
Ol' No. 2 Ol' No. 2 is offline
WSI High Priest
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: Bullpen Sports Bar
Posts: 11,663
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by JB98
I was thinking this morning, every time the Sox have a bad defensive game, it seems like everything else falls apart as well. The pitchers implode, and the hitters start trying to get it all back with one swing.

Boy, we had some rotten at-bats last night. All Hernandez had to do was flip that ****ty breaking ball up there down-and-away and watch us make weak swing after weak swing. Hernandez went through our lineup three times, and he must have gotten 20-25 swings at breaking balls that were out of the zone.

We were very disciplined when we clobbered Hernandez in Kansas City. I was at that game, and the guys did a great job of waiting him out. Against Minnesota, Hernandez walked nine in 4 2/3 innings. That had to be in our scouting report. But the Sox hitters swung the bats like their cars were double parked outside the stadium last night. No patience, no discipline. Greg Walker must have lost his lunch watching that from the dugout. Our hitters forgot the reasons we've been successful against Hernandez in the past. We're talking about a pitcher who simply cannot throw three strikes before he throws four balls. Man, that was a bad loss.
Is it just me or do they do this every game after a blowout?
Reply With Quote
  #164  
Old 08-16-2006, 02:02 PM
dagotony06 dagotony06 is offline
WSI Regular
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: CHICAGO HEIGHTS
Posts: 37
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ol' No. 2
The question is, obviously, the right level of aggressiveness. It's a careful balance, and I don't have any problem with being more aggressive with two outs in a tie game. Becoming more conservative might get you fewer runners thrown out, but it will also cost you runs that you would have scored otherwise. As I said, the next hitter has a 70% chance of making an out. The defense has to make two good throws to get you. As long as the chances of that happening are less than 70%, it's a good gamble. Also, when the defense knows you're going to run aggressively, they will tend to rush throws, and errors become more likely, so it also has a secondary effect on other plays.

With no outs or one out, sending Iguchi would have absolutely been the wrong thing to do. But with two outs, he's a hell of a lot more likely to die on 3rd than he is to score. Even with a good gamble you're going to lose some percentage of the time, but that doesn't make it a bad bet.
Then what you are saying is that you are more confident having a runner try to score from first on a double, when the relay throw is at the second baseman before Iguchi got to third, than you are in Konerko "your cleanup hitter" getting a base hit against a guy that was starting to look like the guy that has an ERA over 8. We had the guy on the ropes, there is no doubt in my mind. Cora ran us out of the inning. It's that simple, therfore in my eyes he cost us the game. He has done it alot in the last two years, and even when he gets lucky and the guy does score I don't like it. Those plays are rally killers, and give momentum to the other teaam. Grudzalanek had the ball before Iguchi got to third, and even a bad throw would have still got him at the plate. It was a STUPID decision!!
Reply With Quote
  #165  
Old 08-16-2006, 02:22 PM
Ol' No. 2's Avatar
Ol' No. 2 Ol' No. 2 is offline
WSI High Priest
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: Bullpen Sports Bar
Posts: 11,663
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by dagotony06
Then what you are saying is that you are more confident having a runner try to score from first on a double, when the relay throw is at the second baseman before Iguchi got to third, than you are in Konerko "your cleanup hitter" getting a base hit against a guy that was starting to look like the guy that has an ERA over 8. We had the guy on the ropes, there is no doubt in my mind. Cora ran us out of the inning. It's that simple, therfore in my eyes he cost us the game. He has done it alot in the last two years, and even when he gets lucky and the guy does score I don't like it. Those plays are rally killers, and give momentum to the other teaam. Grudzalanek had the ball before Iguchi got to third, and even a bad throw would have still got him at the plate. It was a STUPID decision!!
The decision has to be made well before that. Throwing up a stop sign when a runner is going full throttle around third is a great way to blow out a hamstring. If the throw to Grudz isn't perfect, if he hesitates slightly getting the ball out of his glove, if he doesn't have a good grip on the ball and double-clutches, if the throw is even a little bit up the line, Iguchi would have been safe and everyone would have been raving about what a great job Cora did. In fact, just last week people were ripping on him because he didn't send Konerko home from first base on a double.

I don't care how good your cleanup hitter his, he's going to make an out 70% of the time. And no matter how much the odds are in your favor, sometimes you roll snake-eyes. It was a calculated gamble, and it was absolutely the right decision.
Reply With Quote
Reply


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



Forum Jump




All times are GMT -5. The time now is 05:22 AM.




Design by: Michelle

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Site-specific editorial/photos Copyright ©2001 - 2008 White Sox Interactive. All rights reserved.