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  #16  
Old 12-19-2004, 09:34 PM
ondafarm ondafarm is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rex Hudler
. . . but will likely go to AAA, wherever the hell that is now.
Nashville.
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  #17  
Old 12-19-2004, 09:37 PM
Rex Hudler Rex Hudler is offline
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Originally Posted by ondafarm
Nashville.
Hard to keep track with the affiliation musical chairs..
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  #18  
Old 12-20-2004, 08:46 PM
OurBitchinMinny OurBitchinMinny is offline
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Originally Posted by ondafarm
General consensus where?

I think the advantage goes to the White Sox.
How? Without considering money, going by talent alone, the white sox did get fleeced.
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  #19  
Old 12-21-2004, 12:15 AM
ondafarm ondafarm is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ChisoxfaninMinny
How? Without considering money, going by talent alone, the white sox did get fleeced.
You're kidding, right?

The Sox gave up a one dimensional player who cost as many runs in the field as he scored and drove in mostly meaningless runs (when the Sox led 8-3 he'd make it 10-3.) http://chicago.whitesox.mlb.com/NASA...ayer_id=150324

The Sox got a specialist at getting tough lefties out http://milwaukee.brewers.mlb.com/NAS...ayer_id=150430
and a classic leadoff guy, the league leader in stolen bases and a solid defensive center fielder. http://milwaukee.brewers.mlb.com/NAS...ayer_id=325392
Plus a mid level prospect.

Pods OBP is consistent when considering the avergae of the following batter(s). Should the Sox bat Rowand and Thomas in the 2 and 3 spots then Pods' OBP should be around 340-350. That with 70 stolen bases would score a lot of runs, even on days when the Sox can only get a few singles.
This is a great trade for the White Sox.

You'll note that Pods' fantasy ranking is 1834 compared to Carlos Lee's 1769.

CLee will help the Brewers, but Pods will help the White Sox a lot more.
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  #20  
Old 12-21-2004, 09:22 PM
A. Cavatica A. Cavatica is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ondafarm
You'll note that Pods' fantasy ranking is 1834 compared to Carlos Lee's 1769.
Oh, sorry, didn't realize he had a higher fantasy ranking.

Seriously, stick to baseball, or at least stick to statistics designed to measure performance instead of statistics designed to be easily digested.

Podsednik's had one good season, when he broke in as an old rookie. Lee has been consistent at driving in runs over several years, and also had one good season for on-base percentage. Let's not get too excited about Podsednik's stolen bases. They may count for a lot in your fantasy world but they are a lousy measure of offensive value.
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  #21  
Old 12-21-2004, 10:48 PM
ondafarm ondafarm is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by A. Cavatica
Oh, sorry, didn't realize he had a higher fantasy ranking.

Seriously, stick to baseball, or at least stick to statistics designed to measure performance instead of statistics designed to be easily digested.

Podsednik's had one good season, when he broke in as an old rookie. Lee has been consistent at driving in runs over several years, and also had one good season for on-base percentage. Let's not get too excited about Podsednik's stolen bases. They may count for a lot in your fantasy world but they are a lousy measure of offensive value.
Lee drags down the offensive output of players around him he retards OBP by 20 to 25 points. Pods increases the value by more than that much. Pods scores runs when runs are scarce, Lee drives them in in slugfests. You are the one in the fantasy world if you think Lee is more valuable than Pods.
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  #22  
Old 12-22-2004, 08:08 AM
A. Cavatica A. Cavatica is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ondafarm
Lee drags down the offensive output of players around him he retards OBP by 20 to 25 points. Pods increases the value by more than that much. Pods scores runs when runs are scarce, Lee drives them in in slugfests.
Let's see your reference to the stats on that. Sample size?
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  #23  
Old 12-22-2004, 08:56 PM
ondafarm ondafarm is offline
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Originally Posted by A. Cavatica
Let's see your reference to the stats on that. Sample size?
Well, mark this day down!!! A card carrying Flat Earth Society member asking for numbers !!!
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  #24  
Old 12-22-2004, 09:56 PM
A. Cavatica A. Cavatica is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ondafarm
Well, mark this day down!!! A card carrying Flat Earth Society member asking for numbers !!!
How do you figure I'm a flat Earther? I bought the Bill James Baseball Abstract from, like, 1982 until he stopped publishing it. I'm a big believer in meaningful stats (like OBP) and a big skeptic when it comes to counting stats like RBI and SB, or "fantasy" stats that are largely derived from those.

Stop dodging the issue, and present your evidence that Lee:

- "cost as many runs in the field as he scored"
- "drove in mostly meaningless runs"
- "retards OBP [of his teammates] by 20 to 25 points"

and that Podsednik has the opposite effect.
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  #25  
Old 12-24-2004, 05:25 AM
beck72 beck72 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by A. Cavatica
Stop dodging the issue, and present your evidence that Lee:

- "cost as many runs in the field as he scored"
- "drove in mostly meaningless runs"
- "retards OBP [of his teammates] by 20 to 25 points"

and that Podsednik has the opposite effect.
The fact that Lee was traded, despite all his numbers, shows the Sox didn't think he was that valuable to this team, that they believe Pods can help the team in ways Lee couldn't. Most guys with Lee's numbers would be someone to build a team around. Yet he was still let go.

The only evidence we fans will probably be able to point to to judge this trade is in wins and losses once the season starts.
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  #26  
Old 12-24-2004, 10:52 PM
A. Cavatica A. Cavatica is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by beck72
The fact that Lee was traded, despite all his numbers, shows the Sox didn't think he was that valuable to this team, that they believe Pods can help the team in ways Lee couldn't. Most guys with Lee's numbers would be someone to build a team around. Yet he was still let go.
That's debatable. Lee was certainly valuable to the team, and I'm sure the Sox realize he was valuable to the team. He was just overpriced relative to his contributions, and overpriced relative to other players that were available.

Hey, the Red Sox let Pedro go, too.

I like Carlos Lee, and I've been pushing the idea of trading him (or Konerko) for several lower-priced players for two seasons now. I have my doubts about whether Podsednik was the right guy to go after, but I agree that our #1 need was leadoff hitter and our #2 need was another starter. By trading Lee we addressed those.

If Podsednik hits his career averages, this was a great trade.
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  #27  
Old 12-25-2004, 03:47 AM
jordan23ventura jordan23ventura is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by A. Cavatica
That's debatable. Lee was certainly valuable to the team, and I'm sure the Sox realize he was valuable to the team. He was just overpriced relative to his contributions, and overpriced relative to other players that were available.

Hey, the Red Sox let Pedro go, too.

I like Carlos Lee, and I've been pushing the idea of trading him (or Konerko) for several lower-priced players for two seasons now. I have my doubts about whether Podsednik was the right guy to go after, but I agree that our #1 need was leadoff hitter and our #2 need was another starter. By trading Lee we addressed those.

If Podsednik hits his career averages, this was a great trade.
Lee was overpriced? Compare him to what Beltre got. Hell, he's only worth two Christian Guzmans according to this last offseason.

Everyone is overpaid to some degree considering that all they have to do is play baseball all year - ooh, what a terrible job. But, when you start looking at what players get as FA's, a guy that gives you .300 30 100 every year is definately worth what he makes.

The Red Sox let Pedro go because no one is dumb enough to give out those kinds of contracts except the Mets.
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  #28  
Old 01-02-2005, 09:59 PM
ondafarm ondafarm is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by A. Cavatica
- "retards OBP [of his teammates] by 20 to 25 points"
Carlos Lee in 2004 batted in several positions, mostly 2nd 3rd and fifth. If you add up the total at bats by the batters before and after him in the order, they had 1269 at bats and walks. They got on base 417 of these opportunities. That is a 0.329 clip. Less than the 0.333 rate of the White Sox team in general.

However, if you weight the opportunities by the respective player at bats (as in Frank Thomas, who frequently batted immediately before CLee, had a 0.434 OBP, so his at bats have a higher expected OBP than the White Sox team average OBP of 0.333) then one discovers that the batters immediately before and after CLee should have gotten on base at a 0.354 clip. That means Carlos Lee retards OBP of his teammates by 25 points.
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  #29  
Old 01-02-2005, 11:05 PM
A. Cavatica A. Cavatica is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ondafarm
Carlos Lee in 2004 batted in several positions, mostly 2nd 3rd and fifth. If you add up the total at bats by the batters before and after him in the order, they had 1269 at bats and walks. They got on base 417 of these opportunities. That is a 0.329 clip. Less than the 0.333 rate of the White Sox team in general.

However, if you weight the opportunities by the respective player at bats (as in Frank Thomas, who frequently batted immediately before CLee, had a 0.434 OBP, so his at bats have a higher expected OBP than the White Sox team average OBP of 0.333) then one discovers that the batters immediately before and after CLee should have gotten on base at a 0.354 clip. That means Carlos Lee retards OBP of his teammates by 25 points.
Interesting. I'm willing to be convinced. Do you have a breakdown of how many times each player batted immediately ahead of and behind Carlos, and how they performed in those situations, or are you approximating based on who usually batted in a given position?
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  #30  
Old 01-03-2005, 08:37 PM
ondafarm ondafarm is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by A. Cavatica
Interesting. I'm willing to be convinced. Do you have a breakdown of how many times each player batted immediately ahead of and behind Carlos, and how they performed in those situations, or are you approximating based on who usually batted in a given position?
Frank Thomas had 258 ABs preceding CLee (out of 304 in the season.) He got on base 112 of those times. That is a .434 OBP which matches his season number. Other players had the other 1011 ABs either before or after CLee, PK having the most on the season. They got on base 305 of those times.

A real stat head does not approximate.
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