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  #766  
Old 12-13-2004, 09:04 PM
Rocklive99 Rocklive99 is offline
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Was Podsednik the guy that also pitched in relief for Mil? I remember they had an everyday player who sometimes pitched in relief

Anyways, everytime I look at this trade I throw up in my mouth a little. I don't understand the 'refreshing' argument some people have, why would you pick Carlos when the rest of the team is the station to station power hitter.

I wonder if Ozzie had any role in this, Steve Phillips on ESPNEWS said that Lee and Ozzie did not have the best relationship
  #767  
Old 12-13-2004, 09:17 PM
OurBitchinMinny OurBitchinMinny is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rocklive99
Was Podsednik the guy that also pitched in relief for Mil? I remember they had an everyday player who sometimes pitched in relief

Anyways, everytime I look at this trade I throw up in my mouth a little. I don't understand the 'refreshing' argument some people have, why would you pick Carlos when the rest of the team is the station to station power hitter.

I wonder if Ozzie had any role in this, Steve Phillips on ESPNEWS said that Lee and Ozzie did not have the best relationship
I think you are thinking of brooks kieschnick
  #768  
Old 12-13-2004, 09:20 PM
OurBitchinMinny OurBitchinMinny is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Palehose13
I like CLee a lot and wish him the best...but wow...this new found love for him is unreal. It's like he is a perennial all-star or something.
He is a lot better than posednik and gets better every year. You need to get more from him. If williams sits on his hands and waits till midseason to add an arm after grilli 2-11 or something this is an absolutely horrible deal.
  #769  
Old 12-13-2004, 09:23 PM
JUribe1989 JUribe1989 is offline
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I really don't see KW waiting till the season to get a pitcher. He has surprised me alot already.
  #770  
Old 12-13-2004, 09:25 PM
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PaleHoseGeorge PaleHoseGeorge is offline
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Originally Posted by JUribe1989
I really don't see KW waiting till the season to get a pitcher. He has surprised me alot already.
He has surprised you a lot already? With what? His stupidity?

  #771  
Old 12-13-2004, 10:34 PM
SABRSox SABRSox is offline
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I'll throw in my two cents...

+/- Win Shares

Scott Podsednik +15
Luis Vizcaino +6
Jermaine Dye +12
Dustin Hermanson +6
Carlos Lee -24
Magglio Ordonez -8
Jose Valentin -14

Total -7

Now, Kenny's not done yet, but so far this season, in terms of Win Shares, he's behind. If he signed Odalis Perez, he'd be +5, Matt Clement would bring him to +4. At any rate, the $6 mil, maybe more Kenny has now gives him the flexibility to get up to positive win shares this off season.

BA w/ Runners in Scoring Position 2004:
Carlos Lee - .299
Jermaine Dye - .240
Scott Podsednik - .209

Remember, the White Sox were 2nd in MLB last season in BA/RISP. Unfortunately, they were also 2nd worst in getting runners on base.

On Base Percentage 2004:
Carlos Lee - .366
Magglio Ordonez - .351
Jose Valentin - .287

Jermaine Dye - .329
Scott Podsednik - .313

The Sox still need an OBP guy, as they've taken a step backwards. Though anybody will be better than Jose was.

Final Thoughts:

The Sox didn't win with the sluggers, and nobody on this team should be untradeable. Carlos Lee was taking up $8 mil of this tight payroll to play a corner outfield position. There are better ways to spend $8 mil, like up the middle or on the mound. I agree that if the Sox were going to have to move somebody, Carlos was the guy.

But I don't see how this trade makes us better right now or in the future, and that, it seems, is the goal of every off-season and every move. Also, even if we do get another starter, I'm still not sure we're a better team. We're a different team, but not necessarily better.

I'm skeptical about Podsednik. The .313 OBP scares me, though he may have just had the "sophomore slump." Let's hope that was the case. But even so, Podsednik is a one-dimensional player. Stolen bases are an exciting stat, but they aren't the most meaningful component in a team's success. If we can knock the guy that steals bases in, then it is meaningful, but when we're trading away or not re-signing the guys that excelled at that very aspect of the game, then what's the point? The bright side is that Podsednik is safe about 80% of the time, so at least he'll create more opportunities than outs on the basepaths. Now if he can just get on base...

This, if anything, is a signal that Ryan Sweeney and Brian Anderson are the future (we can rest assured they won't be traded now, right???) and that the money freed up will, in the future be spent on pitching. I'm curious to see which pitcher the Sox will pursue. And I'd bet that when Konerko's contract is up, that money will also be put to use for a pitcher, if he isn't traded before that.

In the end, the big winners tonight are Brewers fans...
  #772  
Old 12-13-2004, 10:38 PM
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Ol' No. 2 Ol' No. 2 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SABRSox
I'll throw in my two cents...

+/- Win Shares

Scott Podsednik +15
Luis Vizcaino +6
Jermaine Dye +12
Dustin Hermanson +6
Carlos Lee -24
Magglio Ordonez -8
Jose Valentin -14

Total -7

Now, Kenny's not done yet, but so far this season, in terms of Win Shares, he's behind. If he signed Odalis Perez, he'd be +5, Matt Clement would bring him to +4. At any rate, the $6 mil, maybe more Kenny has now gives him the flexibility to get up to positive win shares this off season.

BA w/ Runners in Scoring Position 2004:
Carlos Lee - .299
Jermaine Dye - .240
Scott Podsednik - .209

Remember, the White Sox were 2nd in MLB last season in BA/RISP. Unfortunately, they were also 2nd worst in getting runners on base.

On Base Percentage 2004:
Carlos Lee - .366
Magglio Ordonez - .351
Jose Valentin - .287

Jermaine Dye - .329
Scott Podsednik - .313

The Sox still need an OBP guy, as they've taken a step backwards. Though anybody will be better than Jose was.

Final Thoughts:

The Sox didn't win with the sluggers, and nobody on this team should be untradeable. Carlos Lee was taking up $8 mil of this tight payroll to play a corner outfield position. There are better ways to spend $8 mil, like up the middle or on the mound. I agree that if the Sox were going to have to move somebody, Carlos was the guy.

But I don't see how this trade makes us better right now or in the future, and that, it seems, is the goal of every off-season and every move. Also, even if we do get another starter, I'm still not sure we're a better team. We're a different team, but not necessarily better.

I'm skeptical about Podsednik. The .313 OBP scares me, though he may have just had the "sophomore slump." Let's hope that was the case. But even so, Podsednik is a one-dimensional player. Stolen bases are an exciting stat, but they aren't the most meaningful component in a team's success. If we can knock the guy that steals bases in, then it is meaningful, but when we're trading away or not re-signing the guys that excelled at that very aspect of the game, then what's the point? The bright side is that Podsednik is safe about 80% of the time, so at least he'll create more opportunities than outs on the basepaths. Now if he can just get on base...

This, if anything, is a signal that Ryan Sweeney and Brian Anderson are the future (we can rest assured they won't be traded now, right???) and that the money freed up will, in the future be spent on pitching. I'm curious to see which pitcher the Sox will pursue. And I'd bet that when Konerko's contract is up, that money will also be put to use for a pitcher, if he isn't traded before that.

In the end, the big winners tonight are Brewers fans...
I'd be pretty skeptical of any system that rates Jose Valentin higher than Magglio Ordonez. I think it also includes a games played component, similar to VORP. And personally, I think it's pure BS when comparing players at different positions.
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  #773  
Old 12-13-2004, 10:39 PM
MRKARNO MRKARNO is offline
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Sabr, The one thing about your OBP analysis is that you're assuming his last year OBP. Reports are that Podsednik was swinging for the fences far too often and his swing got too long and this is why he had his problems. I think the Sox did good in the OBP dept. if Podsednik reverts back to 2003 form, or possibly better (not out of the question)? The Sox must sign Clement or Odalis and this offseason wont be a bust, but otherwise it will be. Any way you look at it, there are so many question marks about this team. It could finish at 70 wins or 95 wins depending on how they get answered.
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  #774  
Old 12-14-2004, 04:34 AM
zigzag zigzag is offline
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KW and Guillen have both insisted that the team would be rebuilt around strong defensive play and baserunning savvy and this trade confirms thier intentions. This is a gamble, however, as Carlos Lee had displayed enough talent to suggest that he was capable of great things. The lineup will miss Lee's durability and run-producing power, but Williams finally has a legitimate table-setter for an offense that continually struggles for consistency. The loss of Maggs and Carlos will rob the team of most of its power, so it is hoped that management can improve an already strong pitching staff before opening day. Furthermore, an upgrade at catcher would help, and A.J. Pierzynski would be a bold yet affordable response to this problem. Of course, all of these possibilities are based on the idea that the Sox will spend the 6 million dollar budget surplus generated by this deal. If this savings isn't reinvested into upgrading talent on the field, the Sox are going to struggle in a rapidly improving AL central.
  #775  
Old 12-14-2004, 04:37 AM
MUsoxfan MUsoxfan is offline
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Originally Posted by zigzag
Furthermore, an upgrade at catcher would help, and A.J. Pierzynski would be a bold yet affordable response to this problem.
I'll always hate that guy for being on the Twins. He was Mientkiewicz's partner in crime
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  #776  
Old 12-14-2004, 01:06 PM
Handicaporowski Handicaporowski is offline
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How is it that for the last 2 years the Brewers lead-off hitter has stuck out more than ANY of the Sox power hitters? Podsednik - 197, Lee - 164, Thomas - 172, Konerko - 157, Ordoņez - 164 (includes 2002, 2003, and 2004). Looks like we finally got Sammy Sosa back
  #777  
Old 12-14-2004, 01:10 PM
fuzzy_patters fuzzy_patters is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MRKARNO
Sabr, The one thing about your OBP analysis is that you're assuming his last year OBP. Reports are that Podsednik was swinging for the fences far too often and his swing got too long and this is why he had his problems. I think the Sox did good in the OBP dept. if Podsednik reverts back to 2003 form, or possibly better (not out of the question)? The Sox must sign Clement or Odalis and this offseason wont be a bust, but otherwise it will be. Any way you look at it, there are so many question marks about this team. It could finish at 70 wins or 95 wins depending on how they get answered.
His career minor league OBP was only in the .340s. Assuming MLB pitchers are better than minor league pitchers, the .313 OBP looks more like his true ability than the .379 OBP.
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