White Sox Interactive Forums
Sox Clubhouse
 Soxogram: 
Congratulations on the Rookie records for HR and RBI in April, Jose!

Welcome
Go Back   White Sox Interactive Forums > Baseball Discussions > Sox Clubhouse
Home Chat Stats Register Blogs FAQ Calendar Mark Forums Read


Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Old 10-14-2004, 03:34 PM
mweflen mweflen is offline
WSI Church Elder
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: Chicago (38th and Wallace)
Posts: 2,149
Default What is with all the Beltran-worship?

Look, I know the prospect of losing Maggs has a lot of panties in a lot of twists... and the prospect of looking at Joe Borchard's cracked-out mug for 162 games certainly is worthy of a shudder...

But seriously, what is with all this fawning over Carlos Beltran? So he's having a nice playoffs. So what?

Number one - the Yankees have already expressed a deep desire to have him. Which makes our chances of getting him aboout on a par with snowballs in a certain metephysical realm of punishment.

Number two - I look at the guy's stats. Granted, they're solid numbers. It looks like he's entering his prime. But he's basically a Maggs-type player who both strikes out more and steals more.

Is he worth the $14-15 million he'll likely get per year? Nope. Will the Sox pony up $15m per year? No, they won't, and for once, I can't say I'd blame them. I'd much rather have two $7 or $8 million dollar players like Carlos Lee, who produce just as much offensively at nearly half the price.

I say lock up Caballo into a long term deal at around 8 or 9 mil and spend the rest on pitching. Beltran is overpriced and overhyped.
Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old 10-14-2004, 03:38 PM
nodiggity59 nodiggity59 is offline
WSI Personality
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Posts: 1,179
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by mweflen
Look, I know the prospect of losing Maggs has a lot of panties in a lot of twists... and the prospect of looking at Joe Borchard's cracked-out mug for 162 games certainly is worthy of a shudder...

But seriously, what is with all this fawning over Carlos Beltran? So he's having a nice playoffs. So what?

Number one - the Yankees have already expressed a deep desire to have him. Which makes our chances of getting him aboout on a par with snowballs in a certain metephysical realm of punishment.

Number two - I look at the guy's stats. Granted, they're solid numbers. It looks like he's entering his prime. But he's basically a Maggs-type player who both strikes out more and steals more.

Is he worth the $14-15 million he'll likely get per year? Nope. Will the Sox pony up $15m per year? No, they won't, and for once, I can't say I'd blame them. I'd much rather have two $7 or $8 million dollar players like Carlos Lee, who produce just as much offensively at nearly half the price.

I say lock up Caballo into a long term deal at around 8 or 9 mil and spend the rest on pitching. Beltran is overpriced and overhyped.
Beltran also *walks more* (which compensates for lower BA) and plays high caliber defense at a premium position. Also, saying "he steals more" doesn't even begin to describe the difference between he and Maggs on the bases. Beltran stole over 40 bases this year and was only caught three or four times.

Saying Beltran "steals more" is like saying Maggs "hits more" than Joe Borchard - it is a gross understatement.
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old 10-14-2004, 03:40 PM
Iwritecode Iwritecode is offline
Banned
 
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: Rockford
Posts: 11,517
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by mweflen
Look, I know the prospect of losing Maggs has a lot of panties in a lot of twists... and the prospect of looking at Joe Borchard's cracked-out mug for 162 games certainly is worthy of a shudder...

But seriously, what is with all this fawning over Carlos Beltran? So he's having a nice playoffs. So what?

Number one - the Yankees have already expressed a deep desire to have him. Which makes our chances of getting him aboout on a par with snowballs in a certain metephysical realm of punishment.

Number two - I look at the guy's stats. Granted, they're solid numbers. It looks like he's entering his prime. But he's basically a Maggs-type player who both strikes out more and steals more.

Is he worth the $14-15 million he'll likely get per year? Nope. Will the Sox pony up $15m per year? No, they won't, and for once, I can't say I'd blame them. I'd much rather have two $7 or $8 million dollar players like Carlos Lee, who produce just as much offensively at nearly half the price.

I say lock up Caballo into a long term deal at around 8 or 9 mil and spend the rest on pitching. Beltran is overpriced and overhyped.
So we already have one Carlos Lee, would you care to tell us who the "other" one is so we can fawn over him instead?
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old 10-14-2004, 03:44 PM
mweflen mweflen is offline
WSI Church Elder
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: Chicago (38th and Wallace)
Posts: 2,149
Default

Beltran's BB numbers are very comparable to Magglio's over time. Magglio hits 23 points better career (with no indication that Beltran is on the upswing.) Their RBI and HR production is nearly identical.

It's a wash, any way you slice it and dice it. They guy's not worth the $14million Maggs got this year, but then, neither was Maggs.

It's a waste of money to seriously try to land him, and it's a waste of time to imagine him in CF. It's not happening, plain and simple.
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old 10-14-2004, 03:46 PM
mweflen mweflen is offline
WSI Church Elder
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: Chicago (38th and Wallace)
Posts: 2,149
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Iwritecode
So we already have one Carlos Lee, would you care to tell us who the "other" one is so we can fawn over him instead?
Hey, I wish I could. I'm just saying let's try to find another Carlos-type player (numbers and salary) instead of blowing our wad on one over-hyped and overpaid player.

Besides, since when was offense our problem? With our new bandbox stadium, Uribe is putting up Coors numbers. Why not spend the 6 or 7 mil you don't blow on Beltran and land a decent FA pitcher to shore up a seriously wobbly rotation?
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old 10-14-2004, 03:49 PM
Ol' No. 2's Avatar
Ol' No. 2 Ol' No. 2 is offline
WSI High Priest
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: Bullpen Sports Bar
Posts: 11,663
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Iwritecode
So we already have one Carlos Lee, would you care to tell us who the "other" one is so we can fawn over him instead?
Would you like an autograph?
__________________

19 seasons, 9232 AB, 216 SO
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old 10-14-2004, 03:53 PM
Iguana775 Iguana775 is offline
WSI Church Elder
 
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: Lincoln, NE
Posts: 2,463
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by nodiggity59
Beltran also *walks more* (which compensates for lower BA) and plays high caliber defense at a premium position. Also, saying "he steals more" doesn't even begin to describe the difference between he and Maggs on the bases. Beltran stole over 40 bases this year and was only caught three or four times.

Saying Beltran "steals more" is like saying Maggs "hits more" than Joe Borchard - it is a gross understatement.
He's also a gold glove caliber CF and can steal 40 bases.
__________________
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old 10-14-2004, 03:58 PM
hold2dibber hold2dibber is offline
WSI Church Elder
 
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: Western 'burbs (of Chicago)
Posts: 3,888
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by mweflen
Look, I know the prospect of losing Maggs has a lot of panties in a lot of twists... and the prospect of looking at Joe Borchard's cracked-out mug for 162 games certainly is worthy of a shudder...

But seriously, what is with all this fawning over Carlos Beltran? So he's having a nice playoffs. So what?

Number one - the Yankees have already expressed a deep desire to have him. Which makes our chances of getting him aboout on a par with snowballs in a certain metephysical realm of punishment.

Number two - I look at the guy's stats. Granted, they're solid numbers. It looks like he's entering his prime. But he's basically a Maggs-type player who both strikes out more and steals more.

Is he worth the $14-15 million he'll likely get per year? Nope. Will the Sox pony up $15m per year? No, they won't, and for once, I can't say I'd blame them. I'd much rather have two $7 or $8 million dollar players like Carlos Lee, who produce just as much offensively at nearly half the price.

I say lock up Caballo into a long term deal at around 8 or 9 mil and spend the rest on pitching. Beltran is overpriced and overhyped.
I value Beltran more than you do, because of his youth, speed and defense, but I think I agree with your general point. It's like when the Sox signed Albert Belle - he was a great hitter, but the Sox didn't need a great hitter, they needed pitching and signing Belle meant they could afford it. With Frank, Paulie and/or Carlos, Everett, Rowand and Uribe, the Sox have enough "pop". They need some OBP - which probably can be had relatively cheap - and they need pitching. The money it would cost to land Beltran could be used much more effectively elsewhere.
__________________
Pitcher Chuck Finley, after ex-wife Tawny Kitaen accused him in divorce court of being a heavy drinker, marijuana smoker and steroid user: "I can't believe she left out the cross-dressing.''
Reply With Quote
  #9  
Old 10-14-2004, 03:59 PM
sircaffey1 sircaffey1 is offline
WSI Regular
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Posts: 219
Default

If we land Beltran, then we say good bye to Konerko. It's pretty much that simple. So do we want Konerko, Odalis Perez, and a relief pitcher or do we want Beltran and Washurn-type pitcher that we'd get in return for Konerko?

If we land Beltran, we are most likely forced to cut corners elsewhere. I personally would like to spread that money out a little. Get a solid top of the order player like Catalanato, a starting pitcher like Perez, and a relief pitcher or two.

That is fine by me.
Reply With Quote
  #10  
Old 10-14-2004, 04:05 PM
Palehose13 Palehose13 is offline
WSI High Priest
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: In Milwaukee, hey!
Posts: 10,440
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by mweflen
Beltran's BB numbers are very comparable to Magglio's over time. Magglio hits 23 points better career (with no indication that Beltran is on the upswing.) Their RBI and HR production is nearly identical.

It's a wash, any way you slice it and dice it. They guy's not worth the $14million Maggs got this year, but then, neither was Maggs.

It's a waste of money to seriously try to land him, and it's a waste of time to imagine him in CF. It's not happening, plain and simple.
So don't waste your time. I'll spend my time however I want, thank you.
Reply With Quote
  #11  
Old 10-14-2004, 04:05 PM
Iwritecode Iwritecode is offline
Banned
 
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: Rockford
Posts: 11,517
Default

I'm kinda torn.

I see your point. Especially with the limited budget KW has to work with and the "5th starter" problem they've had for years.. On the other hand, Beltran looks like an awful good replacement if we aren't going to get Maggs back.

Can't we have our cake and eat it too?



BA HAH A HA HA HA!!!




Crap.
Reply With Quote
  #12  
Old 10-14-2004, 04:57 PM
Tekijawa's Avatar
Tekijawa Tekijawa is offline
WSI High Priest
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: North Mayfair/Chicago
Posts: 6,681
Default

I'm pretty sure he's also a top of the order Switch hitter with power... teh last time the sox had one of those was...... well.... ummm.. hold on...
Reply With Quote
  #13  
Old 10-14-2004, 05:01 PM
JB98's Avatar
JB98 JB98 is offline
WSI Guru
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Crystal Lake, IL
Posts: 27,464
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by sircaffey1
If we land Beltran, then we say good bye to Konerko. It's pretty much that simple. So do we want Konerko, Odalis Perez, and a relief pitcher or do we want Beltran and Washurn-type pitcher that we'd get in return for Konerko?

If we land Beltran, we are most likely forced to cut corners elsewhere. I personally would like to spread that money out a little. Get a solid top of the order player like Catalanato, a starting pitcher like Perez, and a relief pitcher or two.

That is fine by me.
Catalanotto? First, I don't understand this fascination with a player who has only average speed, little power and is weak defensively. Secondly, he signed an extension with Toronto. I really wish people would stop bringing him up. He ain't coming here, and neither is Beltran.

Secondly, I saw Odalis Perez pitch against St. Louis, and he is NOT the answer for the Sox. He totally folded the tent in a big game. He's a left-handed version of Garland.
Reply With Quote
  #14  
Old 10-14-2004, 05:06 PM
nodiggity59 nodiggity59 is offline
WSI Personality
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Posts: 1,179
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by JB98

Secondly, I saw Odalis Perez pitch against St. Louis, and he is NOT the answer for the Sox. He totally folded the tent in a big game. He's a left-handed version of Garland.
Agreed.
Reply With Quote
  #15  
Old 10-14-2004, 05:06 PM
mweflen mweflen is offline
WSI Church Elder
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: Chicago (38th and Wallace)
Posts: 2,149
Default

At this point, I think the Sox with Beltran would look a lot like the Rangers with A-Rod. The dollars wouldn't be as extreme, but the effect would be similar.

Spread that money around. Get two more picthers for the dough.

I'd like to see a team with nine $3-$5 million dollar position players and four $5mil pitchers than a team with a few "stars" like Maggs and Frank and a bunch of scrubs like Harris.

Guys who hit between .280 and .320, know how to bunt and go the other way, won't hit 40 dingers but might hit 25

Maybe then our chances wouldn't go down the tubes when one or more players go down with an injury!

Granted, with the arbitration structure as it is and the general trend of paying for past performance instead of current performance, finding a player whose salary stayed at $4-5 mil for 5 straight seasons would be difficult.

But a guy could dream, right?
Reply With Quote
Reply


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



Forum Jump




All times are GMT -5. The time now is 10:13 AM.




Design by: Michelle

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Site-specific editorial/photos Copyright ©2001 - 2008 White Sox Interactive. All rights reserved.