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  #61  
Old 12-03-2017, 02:23 PM
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DumpJerry DumpJerry is offline
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Originally Posted by voodoochile View Post
Sale, Buehrle, Quintana, Danks (pre-injury), Floyd, etc.

Cooper has proven he is a fine pitching coach for molding young pitching minds/arms.
Thornton, too.
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  #62  
Old 12-03-2017, 04:02 PM
SOXSINCE'70 SOXSINCE'70 is offline
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FYI:

Renteria and Castillo have worked together in the past.
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  #63  
Old 12-03-2017, 07:57 PM
Grzegorz Grzegorz is offline
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Originally Posted by TomBradley72 View Post
Other than the performances of Giolito, Fulmer, Lopez, Swarzak and Kahnle- I can see your point.

Right, You point out pitchers, the ones acquired via trade having a small sample size. Let's see what happens in the long run.

One would have to go back to 2010 to get decent 'Number of Pitches Thrown'. The team has mediocre 'Stolen Bases Allowed' and 'Caught Stealing' numbers back to 2008.
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  #64  
Old 12-03-2017, 08:24 PM
Andrew C White Andrew C White is offline
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Originally Posted by Grzegorz View Post
Right, You point out pitchers, the ones acquired via trade having a small sample size. Let's see what happens in the long run.

One would have to go back to 2010 to get decent 'Number of Pitches Thrown'. The team has mediocre 'Stolen Bases Allowed' and 'Caught Stealing' numbers back to 2008.
You are very much in the minority in your opinion of Cooper.

2010 - St. Louis Dispatch names Cooper one of the top five in the game

http://www.stltoday.com/sports/baseb...78c5f7062.html

2012 - Bleacher Report ranks Cooper #40 of All-Time.

http://www.bleacherreport.com/articl...es-of-all-time

2014 - Boston Globe ranks Cooper as 4th best in baseball

https://www.bostonglobe.com/sports/2...QVM/story.html

2015 - Fangraphs shows him ranked second 1/100 of a percent behind the leader in fans opinion of pitching coaches

https://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/you-...ching-coaches/

As for the "small sample size" of last years young pitchers... It's actually pretty telling. Giolito was up and down all year in Charlotte but came up to Chicago and started pitching like the #1 pitcher he was previously thought to be. Fulmer was pretty bad in Charlotte and horrible in his first start but then settled down and put together some good starts.

Cooper has even managed to get successful innings out of guys like Hector Noesi and David Holmberg. Guys like Gregory Infante and Juan Minaya turned in decent jobs for Cooper after the bullpen was gutted. These guys are career minor leaguers. And that is not to mention Anthony Swarzak or Tommy Keenhle turning around and becoming ace performers once they started working with Cooper.

I don't know what you expect out of the guy but the White Sox have been pretty lucky to have had one of the best pitching coaches in the game for the last decade and a half and I'm hoping they remain as lucky for the next several years.
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  #65  
Old 12-03-2017, 09:42 PM
XplodingScorbord XplodingScorbord is offline
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But he was mean to fans on the radio.
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  #66  
Old 12-04-2017, 02:02 AM
rdivaldi rdivaldi is offline
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Originally Posted by Grzegorz View Post
The White Sox were in the top three in stolen bases allowed, the bottom third of the league in caught stealing, the top five in the league in pitches thrown.

If you want to help the young pitchers change the pitching coach.
Because stolen bases play such a vital role in modern day baseball?

I wonder what team finished last in caught stealing % in 2017?
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  #67  
Old 12-04-2017, 03:06 AM
Lip Man 1 Lip Man 1 is offline
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Because stolen bases play such a vital role in modern day baseball?

I wonder what team finished last in caught stealing % in 2017?
Vital? Maybe not...does being able to prevent runners from stealing bases basically uncontested help you win close games?

Damn right it does.

Fundamentals, people...fundamentals and God knows the Sox need them.
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  #68  
Old 12-04-2017, 03:11 AM
TheVulture TheVulture is offline
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Like at the catching position?
Sox catching prospects are approximately two years away. Smith and Narvaez are AAAA types clearly. Castillo is signed for two years at reasonable rate at which he could easily be moved into backup role. Pretty simple.
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  #69  
Old 12-04-2017, 04:56 AM
Grzegorz Grzegorz is offline
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Originally Posted by XplodingScorbord View Post
But he was mean to fans on the radio.
In addition to being ineffective.

Quote:
Originally Posted by rdivaldi View Post
Because stolen bases play such a vital role in modern day baseball?

I wonder what team finished last in caught stealing % in 2017?
Sounds like the opinion of many hockey fans in this town when they said FO wins are overrated.

Fundamentals matter in all sports.

If your argument is Cooper does not emphasis the fundamentals like holding runners on because base stealing has been de-emphasized, all the more reason to launch him.

Last edited by Grzegorz; 12-04-2017 at 05:10 AM.
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  #70  
Old 12-04-2017, 05:23 AM
Grzegorz Grzegorz is offline
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Sox catching prospects are approximately two years away. Smith and Narvaez are AAAA types clearly. Castillo is signed for two years at reasonable rate at which he could easily be moved into backup role. Pretty simple.
If Renteria wants him that's fine. I trust Renteria. But for someone to say that Smith and Narvaez are AAAA types ('AAAA'?) failed to watch games last year. Both played very well. Well above all expectations.

That said, by all means continue with your anecdotal argument against those two.
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  #71  
Old 12-04-2017, 08:58 AM
TomBradley72 TomBradley72 is offline
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Originally Posted by Grzegorz View Post
In addition to being ineffective.



Sounds like the opinion of many hockey fans in this town when they said FO wins are overrated.

Fundamentals matter in all sports.

If your argument is Cooper does not emphasis the fundamentals like holding runners on because base stealing has been de-emphasized, all the more reason to launch him.
Are you serious? Launch a highly regarded pitching coach because of a potential issue with holding runners on?

The clown car of White Sox catchers since AJ left might also play a part in that particular issue.
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  #72  
Old 12-04-2017, 09:03 AM
TomBradley72 TomBradley72 is offline
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Originally Posted by Grzegorz View Post
If Renteria wants him that's fine. I trust Renteria. But for someone to say that Smith and Narvaez are AAAA types ('AAAA'?) failed to watch games last year. Both played very well. Well above all expectations.

That said, by all means continue with your anecdotal argument against those two.
I think Narvaez and Smith have proven to be legit major league catchers- albeit back up catchers not starters, but Smith is exactly 14 months younger that Castillo, hitswith much less power, and is 75% worse at throwing out base stealers- so this is clearly a major upgrade.

I'm sure Smith will catch on as a back up somewhere based on how he performed in 2017.
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  #73  
Old 12-04-2017, 11:35 AM
Grzegorz Grzegorz is offline
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Originally Posted by TomBradley72 View Post
Are you serious? Launch a highly regarded pitching coach because of a potential issue with holding runners on?
I've made the statement that it's not one issue.

Quote:
Originally Posted by TomBradley72 View Post
The clown car of White Sox catchers since AJ left might also play a part in that particular issue.
The old adage is that bases are stolen on the pitcher. So the pitchers and by extension, the pitching coach may be the issue.

Quote:
Originally Posted by TomBradley72 View Post
I think Narvaez and Smith have proven to be legit major league catchers- albeit back up catchers not starters, but Smith is exactly 14 months younger that Castillo, hitswith much less power, and is 75% worse at throwing out base stealers- so this is clearly a major upgrade.

I'm sure Smith will catch on as a back up somewhere based on how he performed in 2017.
Caught stealing stats and strikeouts do not matter in this era of baseball.

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Originally Posted by Andrew C White View Post
You are very much in the minority in your opinion of Cooper.
Galileo was in the minority about heliocentrism so being in the minority may not be so bad.

Last edited by Grzegorz; 12-04-2017 at 11:55 AM.
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  #74  
Old 12-04-2017, 12:20 PM
TomBradley72 TomBradley72 is offline
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Originally Posted by Grzegorz View Post

Galileo was in the minority about heliocentrism so being in the minority may not be so bad.
This is awesome- I will not be declaring your a heretic!
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  #75  
Old 12-04-2017, 01:27 PM
rdivaldi rdivaldi is offline
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Originally Posted by Lip Man 1 View Post
Vital? Maybe not...does being able to prevent runners from stealing bases basically uncontested help you win close games?

Damn right it does.

Fundamentals, people...fundamentals and God knows the Sox need them.
The amount of stolen bases in baseball is about half of what it was about 30 years ago. Again, I wonder what team finished last in caught stealing in 2017.....

The idea that White Sox are less "fundamental" than other teams in MLB is unfounded. If you look at watch the other 29 teams play and you will see plenty of missed cut-off men, base running blunders, poor fielding, etc.
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