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  #61  
Old 08-04-2014, 04:22 PM
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doublem23 doublem23 is offline
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Originally Posted by JB98 View Post
Here's the problem with a lot of the discussion in this thread:

We are quick to point at the GM, the manager or a coach for the failings of certain players, but we never give the GM, the manager or a coach much credit for things that go right.

Now, this is hardly exclusive to WSI, or even to White Sox fandom, but that doesn't make it any less ridiculous.

Ventura gets blamed for the failings of the bullpen, but he gets zero credit for the fact that Abreu and Eaton are getting better and better as the season goes along. He also gets no credit for the improvement Gillaspie has shown in his second full year, nor does he get credit for Ramirez having an All-Star campaign.

And I'm not really saying he should.

The main reason Jose Abreu is getting better and better is because Abreu is really good at his job. He'd be a force to be reckoned with regardless of who the manager and hitting coach are.

Likewise, the main reason Ronald Belisario sucks is because, well, he sucks. There isn't much RV can do about it. There isn't much Coop can do about it. They don't have a lot of options because they have a bunch of crud to work with in that bullpen. As others have noted, Petricka, Webb and Putnam are the only three guys who could possibly help this organization going forward.

You can put that at the feet of Hahn if you wish, but only if you're willing to admit that several of his other decisions were good ones (signing Abreu, turning a marginal pitcher like Santiago into Eaton, picking up Gillaspie for next to nothing, signing Sale and Quintana to team-friendly extensions, etc.)

In mid-July of 2013, the White Sox organization had not much of anything positive going for it. There's still a ton of work to do, but at least now you are starting to see the makings of the next core of players.

Sale, Abreu, Eaton, Quintana and A. Garcia are core players. There's a lot of work to be done to build around them, but at least there is finally a core starting to form. That's more that you could have said last year at this same time, and that's why the Sox are on pace for 78 wins -- which would be a 15-game improvement over last season.

Now, we know 78 wins isn't good enough in the big picture, but if the Sox reach that level, I think that's a decent year in context of everything that has transpired.

If some fans want to scream at the sky in frustration every time a bad loss happens, you have that right. All I'm saying is that you'd be better served to keep things in context and have some perspective about the situation.

I don't agree with the people who are bitching and moaning about management, nor do I agree with the people who think this team is capable of making a run at the wild card. The truth lies somewhere in the middle. They are making enough progress that we should be happy with the direction, but we shouldn't be so foolish as to think they are going on a big winning streak anytime soon.

The Sox were in a big hole coming out of a disastrous 2013 campaign. Let's be real about where they are. Nothing has happened this season that should cause management heads to roll. 54-58 is not that bad given where they've been and what they have.
As always, great stuff
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  #62  
Old 08-04-2014, 05:08 PM
WisSoxFan WisSoxFan is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JB98 View Post
Here's the problem with a lot of the discussion in this thread:

We are quick to point at the GM, the manager or a coach for the failings of certain players, but we never give the GM, the manager or a coach much credit for things that go right.

Now, this is hardly exclusive to WSI, or even to White Sox fandom, but that doesn't make it any less ridiculous.

Ventura gets blamed for the failings of the bullpen, but he gets zero credit for the fact that Abreu and Eaton are getting better and better as the season goes along. He also gets no credit for the improvement Gillaspie has shown in his second full year, nor does he get credit for Ramirez having an All-Star campaign.

And I'm not really saying he should.

The main reason Jose Abreu is getting better and better is because Abreu is really good at his job. He'd be a force to be reckoned with regardless of who the manager and hitting coach are.

Likewise, the main reason Ronald Belisario sucks is because, well, he sucks. There isn't much RV can do about it. There isn't much Coop can do about it. They don't have a lot of options because they have a bunch of crud to work with in that bullpen. As others have noted, Petricka, Webb and Putnam are the only three guys who could possibly help this organization going forward.

You can put that at the feet of Hahn if you wish, but only if you're willing to admit that several of his other decisions were good ones (signing Abreu, turning a marginal pitcher like Santiago into Eaton, picking up Gillaspie for next to nothing, signing Sale and Quintana to team-friendly extensions, etc.)

In mid-July of 2013, the White Sox organization had not much of anything positive going for it. There's still a ton of work to do, but at least now you are starting to see the makings of the next core of players.

Sale, Abreu, Eaton, Quintana and A. Garcia are core players. There's a lot of work to be done to build around them, but at least there is finally a core starting to form. That's more that you could have said last year at this same time, and that's why the Sox are on pace for 78 wins -- which would be a 15-game improvement over last season.

Now, we know 78 wins isn't good enough in the big picture, but if the Sox reach that level, I think that's a decent year in context of everything that has transpired.

If some fans want to scream at the sky in frustration every time a bad loss happens, you have that right. All I'm saying is that you'd be better served to keep things in context and have some perspective about the situation.

I don't agree with the people who are bitching and moaning about management, nor do I agree with the people who think this team is capable of making a run at the wild card. The truth lies somewhere in the middle. They are making enough progress that we should be happy with the direction, but we shouldn't be so foolish as to think they are going on a big winning streak anytime soon.

The Sox were in a big hole coming out of a disastrous 2013 campaign. Let's be real about where they are. Nothing has happened this season that should cause management heads to roll. 54-58 is not that bad given where they've been and what they have.
Bravo!
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  #63  
Old 08-04-2014, 08:35 PM
Tragg Tragg is offline
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You realize that you literally have no idea what you're talking about right? Like, I get that it's one thing to say, "Oh I wish the Sox would trade this guy and that guy," but it's another completely different thing to hold them accountable to whatever bizarre scenario you've envisioned...
I want to hold them accountable? What? It's what I would have liked to see done.
As for the the rest of your gibberish, whatever you say.
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  #64  
Old 08-04-2014, 08:43 PM
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I applaud your attempts to spin positively, JB, and you can spin like a whirling dirvish, if you so choose, it's your right..but there are fundamental flaws in this organization that are unavoidable, impossible to spin, and have kept the Sox out of the playoffs on a consistent basis, despite playing in a weak division with small market teams.

The main one being, the guy that put the organization in a huge hole, Kenny Williams, is given further responsibility to make decisions, in a new position. That makes NO sense.

Go and heap accolades upon Hahn and Co for improvements made over the 2013 disaster...No matter how you sugar coat it, bottom line, 2013 should have never happened in the first place
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  #65  
Old 08-04-2014, 08:52 PM
BainesHOF BainesHOF is offline
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Some of you Ventura apologists are funny. To you, a manager isn't responsible for much of anything. In your world, there wouldn't be any managers in the Hall of Fame and no manager would ever get fired.

By the way, Abreu's totals would be even better if Ventura knew how to make out a lineup.

When the team fades for a third straight year under Ventura, I'd like to hear from some of you Ventura apologists. You have two months to work on your alibis.
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  #66  
Old 08-04-2014, 08:56 PM
MISoxfan MISoxfan is offline
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Not only do we have a core. We may have a core on the right side of 30 for the first time since 2008 when it looked like Quentin, Alexei, Danks, and Floyd might be ready to take over for Konerko, Buehrle, Dye, AJ, Thome
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  #67  
Old 08-04-2014, 09:01 PM
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Originally Posted by BainesHOF View Post
By the way, Abreu's totals would be even better if Ventura knew how to make out a lineup.
Definitely, the guys already having one of the most extraordinary rookie seasons in baseball history, BUT HE COULD CLEARLY BE DOING SO MUCH BETTER and this opinion is totally based on facts and research and not just some cartoonishly ridiculous personal agenda.

I mean, I don't mind people being critical or upset because there's still plenty of work that needs to be done for this roster, but you guys realize this is over the top insanity, right? Like, if you were to say this to a group of people in an actual room, they would slowly awkwardly say they had to go see someone else and leave you alone with your drink and theories.
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  #68  
Old 08-04-2014, 09:11 PM
BainesHOF BainesHOF is offline
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Originally Posted by doublem23 View Post
Definitely, the guys already having one of the most extraordinary rookie seasons in baseball history, BUT HE COULD CLEARLY BE DOING SO MUCH BETTER and this opinion is totally based on facts and research and not just some cartoonishly ridiculous personal agenda.

I mean, I don't mind people being critical or upset because there's still plenty of work that needs to be done for this roster, but you guys realize this is over the top insanity, right? Like, if you were to say this to a group of people in an actual room, they would slowly awkwardly say they had to go see someone else and leave you alone with your drink and theories.
Abreu's totals would be better if 1) Ramirez or Gillaspie batted second in the games that Beckham did, and 2) Abreu batted third in the games he didn't. I didn't need a beer to come up with that. It's simple math.
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  #69  
Old 08-04-2014, 09:48 PM
Noneck Noneck is offline
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Originally Posted by captain54 View Post

The main one being, the guy that put the organization in a huge hole, Kenny Williams, is given further responsibility to make decisions, in a new position. That makes NO sense.

Williams is an employee of a chairman of a club that is heavily involved in day to day operations. What decisions Williams makes or doesnt make we will never know but we do know who has the trump card in all decisions.
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  #70  
Old 08-04-2014, 10:00 PM
TomBradley72 TomBradley72 is offline
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Originally Posted by BainesHOF View Post
When the team fades for a third straight year under Ventura, I'd like to hear from some of you Ventura apologists. You have two months to work on your alibis.
The team "faded" in spring training- when due to rebuilding- they chose to enter the season with no closer + a bullpen full of cast offs and rotation of 3 legit major league starters.

And five position starters with zero value at the trading deadline (De Aza, Beckham, Dunn, Viciedo and Flowers).
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"When I heard the National Anthem it hit me," Jose Abreu said through White Sox spokesperson Lou Hernandez. "I love the Anthem. When I learn English Iím going to sing it."
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  #71  
Old 08-04-2014, 10:04 PM
TomBradley72 TomBradley72 is offline
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Originally Posted by BainesHOF View Post
Abreu's totals would be better if 1) Ramirez or Gillaspie batted second in the games that Beckham did, and 2) Abreu batted third in the games he didn't. I didn't need a beer to come up with that. It's simple math.
Ridiculous.

Gillaspie right after Eaton- makes no sense.

Ramirez is not a #2- you want him 5 or 6 where he can just be a free swinger and let it go.

The biggest help to Abreu would be a legit threat behind him- but after Garcia was hurt- that left us with Dunn- who sucks- but why bother mentioning that when it's not Ventura's fault.
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  #72  
Old 08-04-2014, 10:10 PM
captain54 captain54 is offline
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Williams is an employee of a chairman.
Williams is much more than an employee of the chairman..He is an executive officer and one rung up the chain from Rick Hahn, according to the hierarchy of the officers, the Sox brass
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  #73  
Old 08-04-2014, 10:27 PM
Noneck Noneck is offline
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Originally Posted by captain54 View Post
Williams is much more than an employee of the chairman..He is an executive officer and one rung up the chain from Rick Hahn, according to the hierarchy of the officers, the Sox brass
Okie Dokie
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  #74  
Old 08-05-2014, 12:09 AM
SBSoxFan SBSoxFan is offline
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Ridiculous.

Gillaspie right after Eaton- makes no sense.

Ramirez is not a #2- you want him 5 or 6 where he can just be a free swinger and let it go.

The biggest help to Abreu would be a legit threat behind him- but after Garcia was hurt- that left us with Dunn- who sucks- but why bother mentioning that when it's not Ventura's fault.
Why does Gillaspie after Eaton make no sense? If it is because both are left-handed batters, I remember a time when the prototype 2 hitter was left handed - he had the hole between the first and second basemen to hit through and he blocked the catcher's view of the runner, which was supposed to be an advantage on steal attempts. Has that gone away for a balanced line up?

Heck, right now you might as well try Flowers there. I know he strikes out too much, but he's been hot for a month, and he does seem to try to hit the ball to the opposite field in a time when it seems most right-handed batters don't make much of an attempt to hit the ball to the opposite field.

A move like that would be a refreshing change, along with Dunn batting, say, seventh.
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  #75  
Old 08-05-2014, 12:14 AM
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Originally Posted by BainesHOF View Post
Abreu's totals would be better if 1) Ramirez or Gillaspie batted second in the games that Beckham did, and 2) Abreu batted third in the games he didn't. I didn't need a beer to come up with that. It's simple math.
How is batting third all season going to make Abreu a better hitter than hitting fourth? How many games the Abreu hitting fourth ended with him on deck? If having Gillaspie it in front of him would make Abreu a better hitter from the No. 2 position, hitting fourth behind Gillaspie, who has a better batting average which gives him a better on-base percentage than Abreu isn't going to be any worse than hitting second behind Gillaspie.

The problem with hitting Gillaspie second behind Eaton is that Gillaspie is especially vulnerable to left-handed relievers. Eaton is as well, although he got a big hit against a lefty reliever Saturday night. Eaton and Gillaspie are two of your best hitters. You don't want Gillaspie hitting second if a lefty is starting. You don't want to be in a position where the opposing manager can bring in one reliever to diminish the effectiveness of two of your best hitters.

On paper, hitting second would seem to suit Ramirez. I advocated it a few years ago. He will see more fast balls with Eaton on base. He is a free swinger and will see more strikes, which tend to be straighter pitches, hitting ahead of Abreu. But Ramirez isn't a particularly patient hitter, and this season he is leading the team in grounding into double plays. Including tonight's game, in the 14 games Ramirez has started as the No. 2 hitter ahead of Abreu hitting third, Ramirez has grounded into six double plays.

Maybe you understand the simple math, but you're going to have to show your work. Gillaspie in front of Abreu works well, but Gillaspie behind Eaton does not. If you have Gillaspie in front of Abreu, you need to separate Eaton and Gillaspie. Ramirez is too much of a free swinger to be hitting second. He is as likely to clear the bases with a double play as with a double and Abreu's last two intentional walks followed Ramirez hits, one a double and one a single after which he took second on a throw to third where there was a play on Eaton. Maybe Avisail Garcia will strike the balance of being a strong hitter from the right side who can thrive in front of Abreu.

Abreu seems to be improving as a hitter appreciably since April. He is adjusting as a hitter in the majors and improving, which has nothing to do with who is hitting second or whether he is hitting third behind Semien, Beckham or Ramirez or fourth behind Gillaspie.
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