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  #46  
Old 08-04-2014, 11:16 AM
kittle42 kittle42 is offline
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Originally Posted by 34rancher View Post
Well he finally is talking about benching Dunn for konerko more. I guess now that we are past the July trade deadline and no one wants him, can we please just admit that he was a HUGE waste of money, time, and effort? That is 4 years that we can't get back and we lost almost 10% of the at bats of the ball club that could have developed someone? In fact, just waive him and play the kids.
Adam Dunn was the perfect poster boy for this franchise the past 4 years. What an era!
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  #47  
Old 08-04-2014, 11:17 AM
captain54 captain54 is offline
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Originally Posted by Chez View Post

The good news is that the Sox have proven in past years that re-building a bullpen can be done in one off-season. When the team is ready to contend, few of the current group will be on the roster. In the meantime, it's painful at times to watch
If a bullpen can be rebuilt in one off season, why didn't the Sox do it last off season? With an even average bullpen they could have been contending this year, with only two teams running away with anything

I'd don't buy the re-building crap. It's just management trying to justify not putting money into a crappy product that hadn't drawn fans the previous year
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  #48  
Old 08-04-2014, 12:16 PM
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Christ, that game sucked
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  #49  
Old 08-04-2014, 12:17 PM
Tragg Tragg is offline
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Originally Posted by JB98 View Post
That assumes there was a big market for Alexei. How many contenders needed a shortstop? Detroit? You wouldn't expect the Tigers to fork over a big package of prospects to the White Sox.
Seattle. Seattle. They also needed a right handed hitter.
Seattle also has a boatload of young pitching, which is obviously our real weak spot (depth wise, at least).

It goes beyond Alexei - they need to be aggressive this month and turn over some of this roster for A ball players: Dunn and De Aza, primarily. See who claims Alexei.

Last edited by Tragg; 08-04-2014 at 12:26 PM.
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  #50  
Old 08-04-2014, 12:19 PM
Foulke You Foulke You is offline
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Originally Posted by SCCWS View Post
Actually Guerra has about the same stats as Putnam only in about 10 less games. But I think if we give it a month, all three of them will get exposed as well.
Putnam has been far more effective that Guerra. Javy's stats are very misleading because he lets a zillion inherited runners score that don't apply to his E.R.A.
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  #51  
Old 08-04-2014, 12:23 PM
russ99 russ99 is offline
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I know few if any of these guys are any good, but I gotta wonder if Coop has lost his touch a bit.

Pretty dismayed by Robin's comments sticking with the group after that - there has to be guys on the waiver wire better than this.
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  #52  
Old 08-04-2014, 12:36 PM
Zakath Zakath is offline
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Originally Posted by doublem23 View Post
Christ, that game sucked
I wanted to change the channel, then I remembered I was there...
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  #53  
Old 08-04-2014, 01:24 PM
kobo kobo is offline
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Originally Posted by captain54 View Post
If a bullpen can be rebuilt in one off season, why didn't the Sox do it last off season? With an even average bullpen they could have been contending this year, with only two teams running away with anything

I'd don't buy the re-building crap. It's just management trying to justify not putting money into a crappy product that hadn't drawn fans the previous year
Because this is no longer the KW era and the White Sox are not going to be going for it every season. It's more important to revamp the MLB roster and start infusing the minors with some semblance of talent instead of trying to go for it every year and catch lightning in a bottle. The KW approach worked one time; time to let Hahn direct the organization in the way he wants and see what happens.
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  #54  
Old 08-04-2014, 01:26 PM
TDog TDog is offline
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Originally Posted by LITTLE NELL View Post
The whole bullpen should be sent on the next flight to Charlotte, on second thought make it a Greyhound.
Will that result in a more effective bullpen?

On one hand, you could say it couldn't be worse. And, indeed, during the weekend series, every White Sox bullpen pitcher -- not simply everyone who pitched, but every pitcher on the roster who is not in the starting rotation with the possible exception of Luery Garcia --gave up runs. I don't remember ever seeing such a series. No relief pitcher in the three games started and ended a shutout inning until Thompson did it Sunday before coming out to start the nine-run eighth. Rienzo wasn't used until the last inning of the last game and he gave up three runs before getting three outs.

I posted after Friday's game that the Twins offensively seemed very comfortable against White Sox pitching. It wasn't just the bullpen. Friday night they scored five runs in six against Sale. I didn't check, but I think one of them was unearned because a passed ball advanced a runner that otherwise wouldn't have scored, but they still got the run in. Carroll and Quintana were improvements (Quintana especially, Carroll did a lot of damage limiting, in two innings getting run-scoring double plays when the game could have gotten out of hand), but Sox bullpen couldn't protect a two-run lead over two innings on Saturday. With Quintana only going to be able to go five, there was no way the bullpen was going to protect a two-run lead over four.

If Al Lopez were managing, he would have left Quintana in the game until he lost his effectiveness. He was a former catcher who didn't see the need to count pitches and wouldn't bring in a pitcher who was going to be less effective than the pitcher on the mound. He would have used a closing reliever for two or three innings if he had to. Complete games gave bullpens a chance to rest and be more effective. Managers today can't make such choices. This weekend, the bullpen this weekend wasn't mismanaged. It is 2014 and Ventura had no choice but to take out Sale, Carroll and Quintana when he did. And every choice he had coming out of the bullpen was wrong. The Sox escaped with a win Friday, should have won and Friday and could have won Sunday's game with a good long reliever to give them three innings.

On one hand, this weekend was an aberration. You think it couldn't be any worse. Averages are just that, and this was a weekend that skewed the averages upward. But a GM could build a worse bullpen without much effort.

Hahn didn't set out to build a bad bullpen I'm sure, but unlike the bullpen built for the 2007 season that was great in April (a WSI thread posed the question of whether it was the best White Sox bullpen ever) and seemed unable to protect any lead or keep any game close before the end of May, although Aardma would go on to close with other teams whose fans would come to loathe his memory as much as Sox fans do.

If you want to build a bad bullpen, you can start by trading your closer for a prospect who won't be ready for 2014. Sox fans will gloat every time Reed blows a save opportunity, but he has 27 saves this year in 32 chances, which would look pretty good on the Sox this season. Trading the closer hurt, though, because the closer in waiting went down with an injury before recording an out this season, and he may never be coming back (I can hear Bruce Springsteen singing that as I type it). Then the solid setup man who won the closer role almost by default goes down in May, not only being inconsistent at closing games but not being there when you need him in the seventh or eighth. Putnam and Petricka have been the two most consistent relievers this season. Petricka had a bad weekend, blowing a tough save after earning a shaky save, and he got the day off Sunday. Putnam's injury gave callup Thompson a chance to be part of what I hope is the worst inning of the year against the White Sox this year. Webb may have a future, but he can't seem to find a consistent groove, sometimes feeling unhittable, sometimes unable to throw strikes and sometimes throwing strikes hitters love to hit.

It may be only a matter of Webb developing into the closer he has been projected to be, Putnam and Petricka being there in the late innings and a couple more tweaks and addition to right the bullpen in 2015. Carroll this season has been a very good long reliever. He has had a few very good starts, but replace him with a better starter in the rotation, and you improve your bullpen. Sunday (had he not left Saturday's game in line for the win after pitching seven), he might have been able to get the game to closer range. Surkamp, like Downs before him, is only in the majors because he throws with his left hand, but lefties are needed. Not that I wouldn't have traded Santiago or Eaton.

I don't think it needs to be a matter of throwing it out and starting all over again. Coming into this season, though, there were many writing that this team wouldn't need to use resources on bullpen because it wouldn't be competitive enough to win if it had one. What is keeping the team from being competitive on the verge of contending right now, is the lack of a strong bullpen.

I don't believe the White Sox have to start from scratch to build one. But I don't see it happening by the end of August.
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  #55  
Old 08-04-2014, 01:29 PM
kobo kobo is offline
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Originally Posted by Tragg View Post
Seattle. Seattle. They also needed a right handed hitter.
Seattle also has a boatload of young pitching, which is obviously our real weak spot (depth wise, at least).

It goes beyond Alexei - they need to be aggressive this month and turn over some of this roster for A ball players: Dunn and De Aza, primarily. See who claims Alexei
.
Actually, they don't. I expect just about everyone to be on waivers this month sans the couple guys we know shouldn't be (Sale, Abreu, Garcia, Quintana). If no claims are made (and at this point I don't see anyone being claimed) then that shows just how little demand there is for these guys. I'm not on board with getting rid of guys just to get rid of them. When September gets here there will be callups and I expect to see some regulars getting some extra bench time to see what some of the other guys might bring to this team.
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  #56  
Old 08-04-2014, 01:57 PM
Tragg Tragg is offline
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Originally Posted by kobo View Post
Actually, they don't. I expect just about everyone to be on waivers this month sans the couple guys we know shouldn't be (Sale, Abreu, Garcia, Quintana). If no claims are made (and at this point I don't see anyone being claimed) then that shows just how little demand there is for these guys. I'm not on board with getting rid of guys just to get rid of them. When September gets here there will be callups and I expect to see some regulars getting some extra bench time to see what some of the other guys might bring to this team.
I see a lot of value to having Dunn and DeAza off the team. I'd hate to give them away - prefer to pay salary and get an A ball prospect.
Sierra needs to hit more - see what we have. Expose him against righties. A Garcia should be ready soon.
Gillaspie - now the club probably isn't thinking along the same lines I am, but I'd see if he can play outfield. (may have to wait til the offseason). He'd be a great platoon hitter.
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  #57  
Old 08-04-2014, 02:06 PM
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doublem23 doublem23 is offline
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Originally Posted by Tragg View Post
Seattle. Seattle. They also needed a right handed hitter.
Seattle also has a boatload of young pitching, which is obviously our real weak spot (depth wise, at least).

It goes beyond Alexei - they need to be aggressive this month and turn over some of this roster for A ball players: Dunn and De Aza, primarily. See who claims Alexei.
You realize that you literally have no idea what you're talking about right? Like, I get that it's one thing to say, "Oh I wish the Sox would trade this guy and that guy," but it's another completely different thing to hold them accountable to whatever bizarre scenario you've envisioned...

Oh, and here's a reason why they may not have worked anything out with the Mariners, who apparently have a crazy person as their GM:

http://deadspin.com/report-mlb-gms-a...ers-1612939092
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  #58  
Old 08-04-2014, 02:55 PM
captain54 captain54 is offline
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Because this is no longer the KW era and the White Sox are not going to be going for it every season. .
The problem with your logic is that it's not "the go for it every season" attitude that's the problem. It's that this organizations track record overall proves it's not all that adept on what and how to plug in where to get the job done.

Now, I'm not a GM nor do I claim to be, but it would seem to me that even without the injuries to Jones and Lindstrom the Sox were going into the season on a wing and a prayer with that pen
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  #59  
Old 08-04-2014, 03:01 PM
DrCrawdad DrCrawdad is offline
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Christ, that game sucked
I thought Sat was bad then Sunday was even worse. I was seething with anger. Ventura seemed nonplussed, mum publicly to the embarrassment.
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  #60  
Old 08-04-2014, 05:15 PM
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Here's the problem with a lot of the discussion in this thread:

We are quick to point at the GM, the manager or a coach for the failings of certain players, but we never give the GM, the manager or a coach much credit for things that go right.

Now, this is hardly exclusive to WSI, or even to White Sox fandom, but that doesn't make it any less ridiculous.

Ventura gets blamed for the failings of the bullpen, but he gets zero credit for the fact that Abreu and Eaton are getting better and better as the season goes along. He also gets no credit for the improvement Gillaspie has shown in his second full year, nor does he get credit for Ramirez having an All-Star campaign.

And I'm not really saying he should.

The main reason Jose Abreu is getting better and better is because Abreu is really good at his job. He'd be a force to be reckoned with regardless of who the manager and hitting coach are.

Likewise, the main reason Ronald Belisario sucks is because, well, he sucks. There isn't much RV can do about it. There isn't much Coop can do about it. They don't have a lot of options because they have a bunch of crud to work with in that bullpen. As others have noted, Petricka, Webb and Putnam are the only three guys who could possibly help this organization going forward.

You can put that at the feet of Hahn if you wish, but only if you're willing to admit that several of his other decisions were good ones (signing Abreu, turning a marginal pitcher like Santiago into Eaton, picking up Gillaspie for next to nothing, signing Sale and Quintana to team-friendly extensions, etc.)

In mid-July of 2013, the White Sox organization had not much of anything positive going for it. There's still a ton of work to do, but at least now you are starting to see the makings of the next core of players.

Sale, Abreu, Eaton, Quintana and A. Garcia are core players. There's a lot of work to be done to build around them, but at least there is finally a core starting to form. That's more that you could have said last year at this same time, and that's why the Sox are on pace for 78 wins -- which would be a 15-game improvement over last season.

Now, we know 78 wins isn't good enough in the big picture, but if the Sox reach that level, I think that's a decent year in context of everything that has transpired.

If some fans want to scream at the sky in frustration every time a bad loss happens, you have that right. All I'm saying is that you'd be better served to keep things in context and have some perspective about the situation.

I don't agree with the people who are bitching and moaning about management, nor do I agree with the people who think this team is capable of making a run at the wild card. The truth lies somewhere in the middle. They are making enough progress that we should be happy with the direction, but we shouldn't be so foolish as to think they are going on a big winning streak anytime soon.

The Sox were in a big hole coming out of a disastrous 2013 campaign. Let's be real about where they are. Nothing has happened this season that should cause management heads to roll. 54-58 is not that bad given where they've been and what they have.
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