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  #31  
Old 07-28-2014, 07:56 AM
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Originally Posted by BRDSR View Post
Which is why he shouldn't have pinch run for two batters in a row.

Ugh.

After Konerko got his hit, they needed to pinch-run for him; but not with Sierra. At that point, you could see how the inning was shaping up and that De Aza's spot was coming up. Why don't the Sox have a starting pitcher or two that can pinch-run in situations like this? Danks or Noesi running for Konerko is likely an improvement. You preserve Sierra for later that inning and since Konerko is the DH, they don't need to make a decision on his spot until it comes up again (if it does). Given the limitations of the Sox bench (every time Konerko comes throught with a pinch hit, you need a runner for him), I don't understand why they didn't use a starting pitcher to run for him. And if the answer is that "our starting pitchers don't know how to run the bases," then shame on the coaching staff.
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  #32  
Old 07-28-2014, 08:49 AM
Noneck Noneck is offline
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Originally Posted by Chez View Post
After Konerko got his hit, they needed to pinch-run for him; but not with Sierra. At that point, you could see how the inning was shaping up and that De Aza's spot was coming up. Why don't the Sox have a starting pitcher or two that can pinch-run in situations like this? Danks or Noesi running for Konerko is likely an improvement. You preserve Sierra for later that inning and since Konerko is the DH, they don't need to make a decision on his spot until it comes up again (if it does). Given the limitations of the Sox bench (every time Konerko comes throught with a pinch hit, you need a runner for him), I don't understand why they didn't use a starting pitcher to run for him. And if the answer is that "our starting pitchers don't know how to run the bases," then shame on the coaching staff.

Considering the number of pitchers on a staff now a days, pitchers should be constantly pinch running but they aren't. Back in the day when clubs carried 9 or 10 pitchers, pitchers contstantly pinch ran, granted it was before the DH. Im sure they are afraid of injuries but if thats the case they should tell the pitchers they shouldnt slide. When you carry a extra player like Paul, pitchers should always be pinch running.

One more thing, all pitchers have been playing this game since they were little kids , they all played different positions throughout their lives, this isnt a place kicker being put in to return a punt.

Last edited by Noneck; 07-28-2014 at 08:57 AM.
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  #33  
Old 07-28-2014, 09:25 AM
Domeshot17 Domeshot17 is offline
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Considering the number of pitchers on a staff now a days, pitchers should be constantly pinch running but they aren't. Back in the day when clubs carried 9 or 10 pitchers, pitchers contstantly pinch ran, granted it was before the DH. Im sure they are afraid of injuries but if thats the case they should tell the pitchers they shouldnt slide. When you carry a extra player like Paul, pitchers should always be pinch running.

One more thing, all pitchers have been playing this game since they were little kids , they all played different positions throughout their lives, this isnt a place kicker being put in to return a punt.
Well for your last comment, do you mean to play the OF, or just run the bases. I agree, find an athletic guy to run the bases. But if you meant put a pitcher in the OF, no way. The last thing I want is even a guy like Rienzo running and hurting his arm throwing a guy at the plate or diving for a ball.
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  #34  
Old 07-28-2014, 09:32 AM
Noneck Noneck is offline
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Well for your last comment, do you mean to play the OF, or just run the bases. I agree, find an athletic guy to run the bases. But if you meant put a pitcher in the OF, no way. The last thing I want is even a guy like Rienzo running and hurting his arm throwing a guy at the plate or diving for a ball.

I meant pinching running but watching De Aza and Viciedo in the outfield, I wonder if a expendable pitcher may be able to be a late inning replacement in the outfield. Im only half serious on that one.
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  #35  
Old 07-28-2014, 09:34 AM
Tragg Tragg is offline
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Originally Posted by TDog View Post
Ventura didn't have anyone left to pinch-hit except for Flowers. Garcia and Sierra had gone in to run. .
Exactly. Ventura uses his hitters to pinch run (Sierra was running for what would be the lead run); he can't think 2 moves ahead.
Did he know at the time he inserted Sierra that he may have to let a .083 hitter bat?

It's not easy under pressure, but that's why managers generally train before becoming managers, either as ML coaches or ML managers.

Last edited by Tragg; 07-28-2014 at 09:39 AM.
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  #36  
Old 07-28-2014, 10:34 AM
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Originally Posted by LoveYourSuit View Post
The 3 guys you mention there in Beckham, Viciedo, and DeAza are three guys Hahn just couldn't resist to bring back. I was pissed when the decision was made to bring them back knowing well that they had burned every opportunity already handed to them. $11.5 - $12 million combined in the 3 of them. Easily could have used that money to get one quality FA and replace the other 2 spots with minor league players.

They basically have burned an entire season finding out that all 3 guys still suck.
The Sox have much deeper problems than just these three guys, I agree they are all terrible and I want nothing more for them to all go away, but I have strong doubts that this team would be any closer to 5 games away from a postseason position if they had swapped them out for other bad ballplayers.
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  #37  
Old 07-28-2014, 10:38 AM
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I don't understand why they didn't use a starting pitcher to run for him. And if the answer is that "our starting pitchers don't know how to run the bases," then shame on the coaching staff.
Are you being serious? You don't risk pitchers to run the damn bases, the Sox pitching is probably stretched as thin as possible here, I can only imagine the meltdown this board would have if Robin ran Noesi or Danks only to see one of them turn an ankle and be lost for weeks.

They took 3 of 4 on the road from a divisional opponent. Baseball is a marathon, it's a war, you don't risk the greater strategy just to try and conquer every island. Sometimes you just lose and go on with it.
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  #38  
Old 07-28-2014, 12:52 PM
hawkjt hawkjt is offline
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Ventura didn't have anyone left to pinch-hit except for Flowers. Garcia and Sierra had gone in to run. Flowers had gone 1-for-6 with 1 single, 1 walk and 3 strikeouts against Perkins lifetime. The single came in a game about a month ago, but Flowers always has had a hard time making contact against Perkins. In two April games this season, Flowers was pulled for a pinch hitter, once for Viciedo and once for Konerko. Flowers was actually hitting well at the time.

I don't think it was a mistake not to pinch-hit Flowers. De Aza had two hits in seven at bats against Perkins but only one strikeout. With the tying run on third and one out, it wasn't just a matter of getting a hit, but putting the ball in play. De Aza's history, however brief, against Perkins was that he put the ball in play against him in seven appearances (including a sacrifice bunt) and had struck out once. Flowers' history was that he had put the ball in play three times in seven appearances, walking once with no one on base in April 2013. The sample size is small, but De Aza has always made better contact against Perkins. If Flowers grounds out, the play goes to the plate, and there is a better chance of getting him at first in a double play.

I don't think pinch-hitting Flowers would have promised any better result than leaving De Aza in to pinch-hit, and I don't think saving a hitter to hit for De Aza would have helped. Without sending in Garcia to run you probably don't have a runner on third and none out, certainly not with the fastest player on the team representing the tying run at third. You pretty much have to run for Konerko, whose hit sent Garcia to third. Maybe Rienzo should have gone in to run for Konerko, leaving Sierra available to pinch-hit for De Aza. Sierra has less of a history, having faced Perkins twice without a hit, striking out once.

It was frustrating to lose today, especially after taking the lead, especially with the tying run on third and none out. But I can't blame the manager. If Carroll can only go six, Belisario is going to have to come through, and he has been pitching very well in non-closing situations. If Guerra has the score tied with two outs and two runners in scoring position, he has to be able to get the third out. It was two managerial moves that put runners on first and third with none out. The key play in the ninth was striking out Viciedo, who had two pinch hits against Perkins earlier in the year. This time he failed. Konerko has pinch-hit five times against Perkins this year and has four hits, but the day he pinch-hit for Flowers, he grounded out for the last out in a 10-9 loss with Viciedo on third. Konerko this year is hitting .800 against Perkins.

I think Flowers would have hit for De Aza had there been two outs, when a strikeout is the same as a flyout, when beating the relay to first to avoid the double play is irrelevant.

But if you want to see Danks and Ramirez traded by the deadline, it shouldn't make any difference.

Thanks for bringing actual facts to the discussion. DeAza has been hitting very well for over a month. Belli has been lights out since he was taken out of the 9th inning role. They were the right guys in the right spots, but they did not come thru...that's baseball. Robin did his job.

I think Belli would fetch some decent return on the trade market. He has been throwing very well. I also think that DeAza would be an astute pickup by somebody seeking a lefty outfielder who is hitting over .330 the last month, and played excellent defense in that same time period.

Do some of these Sox fans even watch the games...?
Anyone that has been watching all along would know that Belli and DeAza have been playing well, but they are hammering them like they have not seen them for a month.

Gardsy won this game, with his gamesmanship move on Belli...ok, I agree that Robin should have been out there immediately to seek info from the ump on the surprising move to the mound.

But, it is on Belli in the end, he lost his composure and it cost the Sox the game.

Nice to see Nieto lay down a perfect bunt and then hit his first homer on the next at bat. Love the silent treatment from the dugout as Adrian is one of the pepperpot personalities on the team...funny.

Adam Eaton's throw could have won the game, but he was off a bit...too bad. I think Nieto should have moved up the line to catch it clean and then whip his glove around to catch Willingham on the butt. ...sigh.
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  #39  
Old 07-28-2014, 01:21 PM
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Originally Posted by doublem23 View Post
Are you being serious? You don't risk pitchers to run the damn bases, the Sox pitching is probably stretched as thin as possible here, I can only imagine the meltdown this board would have if Robin ran Noesi or Danks only to see one of them turn an ankle and be lost for weeks.

They took 3 of 4 on the road from a divisional opponent. Baseball is a marathon, it's a war, you don't risk the greater strategy just to try and conquer every island. Sometimes you just lose and go on with it.

Yes. I am being serious. I understand there is a theoretical the risk of injury to pitchers running the bases, but how many National League pitchers have actually been injured running the bases? I don't know the answer, but if it's zero or close to zero, then I think having an athletic starter (not named Sale)acting as an infrequent pinch-runner for a team with limited roster flexibility seems like a reasonable risk to take in a situation like what happened yesterday in the 9th inning. Besides, if it turns out that Johnny Danks is a great base-runner, it could enhance his trade value to a contender.
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  #40  
Old 07-28-2014, 01:28 PM
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I have no idea, I don't follow the NL very closely so I can't say but of course, remember running the bases is how Jake Peavy ended up hurting himself before he was traded to the Sox. Either way, unless it is like a Game 7 of a playoff series that is absolutely do or die, it is a ridiculous idea to start pinch running your pitchers.

There's also a reason why literally no other team implements this strategy. Too great of risk for too little reward.
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  #41  
Old 07-28-2014, 01:31 PM
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I have no idea, I don't follow the NL very closely so I can't say but of course, remember running the bases is how Jake Peavy ended up hurting himself before he was traded to the Sox. Either way, unless it is like a Game 7 of a playoff series that is absolutely do or die, it is a ridiculous idea to start pinch running your pitchers.

There's also a reason why literally no other team implements this strategy. Too great of risk for too little reward.

Perhaps. But back in the day, Bob Gibson, Fergie Jenkins and others were frequently used as pinch runners. Of course, Gibson and Jenkins were more expendable than Noesi and Danks.
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  #42  
Old 07-28-2014, 01:46 PM
billyvsox billyvsox is offline
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I have no idea, I don't follow the NL very closely so I can't say but of course, remember running the bases is how Jake Peavy ended up hurting himself before he was traded to the Sox. Either way, unless it is like a Game 7 of a playoff series that is absolutely do or die, it is a ridiculous idea to start pinch running your pitchers.

There's also a reason why literally no other team implements this strategy. Too great of risk for too little reward.
I disagree, I see plenty of AL teams using pitchers to pinch run in late game situations. Furthermore, a pitcher has a far greater chance on turning an ankle or getting injured pitching or covering first base then he does running the bases.
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  #43  
Old 07-28-2014, 01:46 PM
LITTLE NELL LITTLE NELL is offline
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Perhaps. But back in the day, Bob Gibson, Fergie Jenkins and others were frequently used as pinch runners. Of course, Gibson and Jenkins were more expendable than Noesi and Danks.
I remember Billy Pierce and few others in the Go Go Sox era being used as pinch runners.
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  #44  
Old 07-28-2014, 01:50 PM
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I disagree, I see plenty of AL teams using pitchers to pinch run in late game situations. Furthermore, a pitcher has a far greater chance on turning an ankle or getting injured pitching or covering first base then he does running the bases.
And they're even more likely to get hurt just in the act of pitching, but pitchers have to pitch and they have to cover 1st base sometimes, that's part of the job, but they don't have to be exposed to baserunning so it's not really a fair comparison.

I'm trying to think of the last time a pitcher was used as a PR in either league. It can't happen more than a few times per season. And there's a reason for that.

Again, situations are different for all teams, the Sox are a team that has been barely clinging to the fringe of the AL playoff chase for the entire season, they are clearly not in a "win now" phase, and they have very, very limited pitching available in the case of an injury (whose the next guy up? Reinzo? HARD PASS). The odds are overwhelmingly unlikely that Sunday's loss will have very significant ramifications in the short and long term development of this season and organization.

Last edited by doublem23; 07-28-2014 at 01:58 PM.
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  #45  
Old 07-28-2014, 01:52 PM
Noneck Noneck is offline
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Originally Posted by LITTLE NELL View Post
I remember Billy Pierce and few others in the Go Go Sox era being used as pinch runners.
Joel Horlen pinch ran a lot and if I remember correctly every time Smoky Burgess got on base a pinch runner was sent in, usually a pitcher. Paul is like Smoky.
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