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View Poll Results: Would you trade rosters with the Cubs
Yes 12 14.63%
No 67 81.71%
Only if three bags of Churros is tossed in the deal 3 3.66%
Voters: 82. You may not vote on this poll

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  #46  
Old 07-15-2014, 07:52 PM
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Originally Posted by Domeshot17 View Post
Wow, a reasonable post amongst many total homer comments, go figure.
I'm actually disturbed that seven people in the poll (so far) actually are misguided into choosing a handful of prospects that they have likely never seen play in person, have probably never seen play on television unless they were glued to their televisions in March, and know very little tangible things about other than what they have perhaps read online or in the paper from 2nd and 3rd hand accounts by many people who also haven't seen them play in person or have seen them on tv. You can claim you're looking at stats, but minor league metrics are not equivalent to MLB for a number of reasons.

In that decision, you're trading young, cost controlled, marketable Sox players including a Cy Young candidate (Sale) and MVP candidate (Abreu) for unproven minor league players that rank on a Baseball America list.

Nevermind the fact that, in the history of baseball, you can count of one hand the number of times a team has completely tanked and traded away all of their stars in hopes of a total "gut-and-rebuild" and have been successful within the first five years. The success stories are far outweighed by the disaster stories.

All of this said, on a White Sox forum, no less, I'm hearing the words "reasonable", "homer" and "objective" being used as arguments to make your point?

I'm open-minded, but you guys are going to have to step up your game tenfold to sell me on this one.
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  #47  
Old 07-15-2014, 08:03 PM
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Originally Posted by Brian26 View Post
I'm actually disturbed that seven people in the poll (so far) actually are misguided into choosing a handful of prospects that they have likely never seen play in person, have probably never seen play on television unless they were glued to their televisions in March, and know very little tangible things about other than what they have perhaps read online or in the paper from 2nd and 3rd hand accounts by many people who also haven't seen them play in person or have seen them on tv. You can claim you're looking at stats, but minor league metrics are not equivalent to MLB for a number of reasons.

In that decision, you're trading young, cost controlled, marketable Sox players including a Cy Young candidate (Sale) and MVP candidate (Abreu) for unproven minor league players that rank on a Baseball America list.

Nevermind the fact that, in the history of baseball, you can count of one hand the number of times a team has completely tanked and traded away all of their stars in hopes of a total "gut-and-rebuild" and have been successful within the first five years. The success stories are far outweighed by the disaster stories.

All of this said, on a White Sox forum, no less, I'm hearing the words "reasonable", "homer" and "objective" being used as arguments to make your point?

I'm open-minded, but you guys are going to have to step up your game tenfold to sell me on this one.
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  #48  
Old 07-15-2014, 08:57 PM
Domeshot17 Domeshot17 is offline
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Originally Posted by Brian26 View Post
I'm actually disturbed that seven people in the poll (so far) actually are misguided into choosing a handful of prospects that they have likely never seen play in person, have probably never seen play on television unless they were glued to their televisions in March, and know very little tangible things about other than what they have perhaps read online or in the paper from 2nd and 3rd hand accounts by many people who also haven't seen them play in person or have seen them on tv. You can claim you're looking at stats, but minor league metrics are not equivalent to MLB for a number of reasons.

In that decision, you're trading young, cost controlled, marketable Sox players including a Cy Young candidate (Sale) and MVP candidate (Abreu) for unproven minor league players that rank on a Baseball America list.

Nevermind the fact that, in the history of baseball, you can count of one hand the number of times a team has completely tanked and traded away all of their stars in hopes of a total "gut-and-rebuild" and have been successful within the first five years. The success stories are far outweighed by the disaster stories.

All of this said, on a White Sox forum, no less, I'm hearing the words "reasonable", "homer" and "objective" being used as arguments to make your point?

I'm open-minded, but you guys are going to have to step up your game tenfold to sell me on this one.
There is nothing to sell, I said I would take the Sox roster. but it does come down to having proven cornerstones versus having a mountain of potential. Its a coinflip, it really is, the Cubs could easily be way better than the Sox in 2 years.

Here is the biggest flaw in your argument, The Sox have Sale and Abreu now and suck. Now, we have some good pieces, but we need a lot of help.

I will say this too, I would bet the people picking the Cubs roster know more about prospects than the guys saying the Cubs farm sucks. Its pretty hard to overhype a farm that has that many top 25 prospects.

But I digress, Sox fans will always be split between people who care very little about the Cubs and people who are super insecure about the Cubs and feel the need to compare everything the Sox do to the Cubs. Those same people couldn't even enjoy 2005 without bringing the Cubs up, despite the fact it had NOTHING to do with the Cubs.
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  #49  
Old 07-15-2014, 09:01 PM
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Originally Posted by Domeshot17 View Post
There is nothing to sell, I said I would take the Sox roster. but it does come down to having proven cornerstones versus having a mountain of potential. Its a coinflip, it really is, the Cubs could easily be way better than the Sox in 2 years.

Here is the biggest flaw in your argument, The Sox have Sale and Abreu now and suck. Now, we have some good pieces, but we need a lot of help.

I will say this too, I would bet the people picking the Cubs roster know more about prospects than the guys saying the Cubs farm sucks. Its pretty hard to overhype a farm that has that many top 25 prospects.

But I digress, Sox fans will always be split between people who care very little about the Cubs and people who are super insecure about the Cubs and feel the need to compare everything the Sox do to the Cubs. Those same people couldn't even enjoy 2005 without bringing the Cubs up, despite the fact it had NOTHING to do with the Cubs.
Not one person in this thread has said the Cubs' farm system sucks.
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  #50  
Old 07-15-2014, 10:10 PM
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Originally Posted by Brian26 View Post
Nevermind the fact that, in the history of baseball, you can count of one hand the number of times a team has completely tanked and traded away all of their stars in hopes of a total "gut-and-rebuild" and have been successful within the first five years. The success stories are far outweighed by the disaster stories.
I've been telling Cub fans that Theo's plan is 100% certain to work except for one minor detail. The other 29 teams are doing the same thing, just not to the same drastic degree.

What is the precedence for this approach to work? The most recent example of a team building itself up through mostly high draft picks is Tampa. They made it to one World Series (lost) and since then lost three times in the LDS. Today, Tampa is 9 games below .500. Kansas City is not quite the same thing because they have been signing free agents to complement their farm system. The Tigers went from crap to contenders by spending money to a degree that would make George Steinbrenner blush.

I still think the Cubs will be "pretty good," but not the 1920's Yankees.
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  #51  
Old 07-16-2014, 12:14 AM
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Originally Posted by Brian26 View Post
I'm actually disturbed that seven people in the poll (so far) actually are misguided into choosing a handful of prospects that they have likely never seen play in person, have probably never seen play on television unless they were glued to their televisions in March, and know very little tangible things about other than what they have perhaps read online or in the paper from 2nd and 3rd hand accounts by many people who also haven't seen them play in person or have seen them on tv. You can claim you're looking at stats, but minor league metrics are not equivalent to MLB for a number of reasons.

In that decision, you're trading young, cost controlled, marketable Sox players including a Cy Young candidate (Sale) and MVP candidate (Abreu) for unproven minor league players that rank on a Baseball America list.

Nevermind the fact that, in the history of baseball, you can count of one hand the number of times a team has completely tanked and traded away all of their stars in hopes of a total "gut-and-rebuild" and have been successful within the first five years. The success stories are far outweighed by the disaster stories.

All of this said, on a White Sox forum, no less, I'm hearing the words "reasonable", "homer" and "objective" being used as arguments to make your point?

I'm open-minded, but you guys are going to have to step up your game tenfold to sell me on this one.
It just speaks to what I said in the Samardzija thread over in Talking Baseball. We have some Sox fans who are real self-loathing. For whatever reason, they buy into the media hype that the Sox are inferior in every way to our North Side counterparts, and that everybody else in baseball should just ****ing give up in the face of this "well-stocked" Cubbie farm system.

It's worth noting that the question in this thread is not "Would you trade farm systems with the Cubs?" It is "Would you trade rosters with the Cubs?"

The Sox' 25-man is clearly superior. That's not even a debate. And I would argue the 40-man is superior as well. Remember, Baez, Bryant, Russell, Almora and all the other anointed ones are not on the Cubs' 40-man, while Josh Vitters, Brett Jackson and the great Zac Rosscup are.
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  #52  
Old 07-16-2014, 12:44 AM
CoopaLoop CoopaLoop is offline
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Look, I am a prospect guy and when the Sox suck, I spend even more time following the world of prospects even more. I made the thread because there has been spirited debate in every thread about a Cubs trade so I was genuinely curious what Sox fans would do.

I think it is a close call.

The current MLB players that will be guaranteed to be a part of a future contending team unless traded in my opinion:

White Sox:
Sale, Abreu, Eaton and Quintana (he's in any playoff rotation)

Cubs:
Rizzo and Castro

Sure there are a couple of guys on both sides that have a place on the 25 man, but I am not going to debate that.

So to me the question is would you trade Sale and Quintana for 6 of the top 30 prospects in baseball? Rizzo/Castro and Abreu/Eaton is very close.

Sox Minors: (consensus bottom 5 though definitely trending upwards)

Three guys in top 100 lists and Micah Johnson probably has played his way on to the list this season.

1) Rodon: I imagine he instantly is the number one prospect and has the potential to be in the rotation by the end of 15.

2) Tim Anderson: Very early holding his own in A ball, but 68/7 K/BB is concerning.

3) Matt Davidson: Absolutely loved this trade in the offseason but he has quite simply been a disaster this year despite his recent play. He has gone from competing for a starting 3B job to a question mark in half a season.

Also Intriguing: Erik Johnson, Carlos Sanchez, Francellis Montas, Tyler Danish, but I have fallen out of love with Courtney Hawkins.

I don't know where to put Avisail Garcia. I'd still consider him a prospect at this point.

Cubs Minors: (Consensus top 5)

Eight in the top 100 and Six in the top 30.

1) Kris Bryant: .355/458/702! with 31 homers. Only someone with extreme prospect cynicism doubts he will succeed at the next level.

2) Addison Russell: Was a top 5 prospect destroying every level of the minors before ever becoming a Cub. Great glove, great discipline at the dish.

3) Javier Baez: A year ago was a can't miss sure thing. This year his plate discipline has really shown to the tune of 110/28 K/BB and like Davidson got off to a horrendous start.

4) Jorge Soler: .283/.343/467 before breaking his leg last year and has followed it up with .397/456/.880 in limited action. Injuries have delayed the process.

5) Alberto Almora: Been pretty ho hum since anointed a star in the making. Just a .300 OBP this year.

6) C.J Edwards: If that change becomes a plus pitch he's got #2 potential. 155 k's in 115 innings a year ago with a .187 avg against

Also Intriguing: Alcantara, Billy McKinney, Arodys Vizcaino

Plus look what Jake Arrieta has done with a cutter this year without Coop!

If Chris Sale wasn't on the Sox roster this wouldn't even be a discussion. (and yes I know that he is) Give me the upside with 6 of the 30 best prospects in baseball especially considering 4 could be ready sometime in 2015.

Last edited by CoopaLoop; 07-16-2014 at 12:50 AM.
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  #53  
Old 07-16-2014, 01:04 AM
DrCrawdad DrCrawdad is offline
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Originally Posted by CoopaLoop View Post
Look, I am a prospect guy and when the Sox suck, I spend even more time following the world of prospects even more. I made the thread because there has been spirited debate in every thread about a Cubs trade so I was genuinely curious what Sox fans would do.

I think it is a close call.

The current MLB players that will be guaranteed to be a part of a future contending team unless traded in my opinion:

White Sox:
Sale, Abreu, Eaton and Quintana (he's in any playoff rotation)

Cubs:
Rizzo and Castro

Sure there are a couple of guys on both sides that have a place on the 25 man, but I am not going to debate that.

So to me the question is would you trade Sale and Quintana for 6 of the top 30 prospects in baseball? Rizzo/Castro and Abreu/Eaton is very close.

Sox Minors: (consensus bottom 5 though definitely trending upwards)

Three guys in top 100 lists and Micah Johnson probably has played his way on to the list this season.

1) Rodon: I imagine he instantly is the number one prospect and has the potential to be in the rotation by the end of 15.

2) Tim Anderson: Very early holding his own in A ball, but 68/7 K/BB is concerning.

3) Matt Davidson: Absolutely loved this trade in the offseason but he has quite simply been a disaster this year despite his recent play. He has gone from competing for a starting 3B job to a question mark in half a season.

Also Intriguing: Erik Johnson, Carlos Sanchez, Francellis Montas, Tyler Danish, but I have fallen out of love with Courtney Hawkins.

I don't know where to put Avisail Garcia. I'd still consider him a prospect at this point.

Cubs Minors: (Consensus top 5)

Eight in the top 100 and Six in the top 30.

1) Kris Bryant: .355/458/702! with 31 homers. Only someone with extreme prospect cynicism doubts he will succeed at the next level.

2) Addison Russell: Was a top 5 prospect destroying every level of the minors before ever becoming a Cub. Great glove, great discipline at the dish.

3) Javier Baez: A year ago was a can't miss sure thing. This year his plate discipline has really shown to the tune of 110/28 K/BB and like Davidson got off to a horrendous start.

4) Jorge Soler: .283/.343/467 before breaking his leg last year and has followed it up with .397/456/.880 in limited action. Injuries have delayed the process.

5) Alberto Almora: Been pretty ho hum since anointed a star in the making. Just a .300 OBP this year.

6) C.J Edwards: If that change becomes a plus pitch he's got #2 potential. 155 k's in 115 innings a year ago with a .187 avg against

Also Intriguing: Alcantara, Billy McKinney, Arodys Vizcaino

Plus look what Jake Arrieta has done with a cutter this year without Coop!

If Chris Sale wasn't on the Sox roster this wouldn't even be a discussion. (and yes I know that he is) Give me the upside with 6 of the 30 best prospects in baseball especially considering 4 could be ready sometime in 2015.
Alexei Ramirez? Connor Gillespie? Remember these two guys?

In the mid to late 90's I remember the Cubbies system was stocked with can't miss prospects. I remember hearing Dave Kaplan interviewing Bobby Hill. Kaplan was so sure, boasted and mocked the Sox for not signing Bobby Hill and for how poorly the Sox system was compared to the Cubbies. Kappa went on and on about Dave Kelton, He Sop Choi, Francis Beltran and others. The Cubbies were stockpiled with prospects at all these positions. Poor pitiful Sox. Good that Hill missed the Sox trainwreck for the dynasty bound Cubbies.

But there I go taking your bait. Here I'll give you what you want...

Theos is a god. The Cubbies are the greatest team in MLB. Their farm system is the best in the history of MLB. Damn to hell any Sox fan who does not genuflect towards all things Cubbie.
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  #54  
Old 07-16-2014, 08:07 AM
Domeshot17 Domeshot17 is offline
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Originally Posted by DrCrawdad View Post
Alexei Ramirez? Connor Gillespie? Remember these two guys?

In the mid to late 90's I remember the Cubbies system was stocked with can't miss prospects. I remember hearing Dave Kaplan interviewing Bobby Hill. Kaplan was so sure, boasted and mocked the Sox for not signing Bobby Hill and for how poorly the Sox system was compared to the Cubbies. Kappa went on and on about Dave Kelton, He Sop Choi, Francis Beltran and others. The Cubbies were stockpiled with prospects at all these positions. Poor pitiful Sox. Good that Hill missed the Sox trainwreck for the dynasty bound Cubbies.

But there I go taking your bait. Here I'll give you what you want...

Theos is a god. The Cubbies are the greatest team in MLB. Their farm system is the best in the history of MLB. Damn to hell any Sox fan who does not genuflect towards all things Cubbie.
You realize what Bobby Hill and Hee-Sop choi did 20 years ago have 0,none, impact on Bryant and Beaz etc...not saying they will work out but you just sound like a bitter old sox fan. That's like making a statement that due to Borchard not working out we need to dump Avi Garcia, just ignorant.

Also Ramirez is not part of the long term plan. At his age, we are already seeing the decline, he had 1 good month this season that made him an all star. Connor it's too early to tell although his best bet might be shifting to 2b to take over for Gordon who has proven to be one of the worst 2b in baseball. I like Connor but I don't know if there is a home for him if Davidson works out.
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  #55  
Old 07-16-2014, 08:11 AM
Domeshot17 Domeshot17 is offline
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Originally Posted by DrCrawdad View Post
Alexei Ramirez? Connor Gillespie? Remember these two guys?

In the mid to late 90's I remember the Cubbies system was stocked with can't miss prospects. I remember hearing Dave Kaplan interviewing Bobby Hill. Kaplan was so sure, boasted and mocked the Sox for not signing Bobby Hill and for how poorly the Sox system was compared to the Cubbies. Kappa went on and on about Dave Kelton, He Sop Choi, Francis Beltran and others. The Cubbies were stockpiled with prospects at all these positions. Poor pitiful Sox. Good that Hill missed the Sox trainwreck for the dynasty bound Cubbies.

But there I go taking your bait. Here I'll give you what you want...

Theos is a god. The Cubbies are the greatest team in MLB. Their farm system is the best in the history of MLB. Damn to hell any Sox fan who does not genuflect towards all things Cubbie.
You realize what Bobby Hill and Hee-Sop choi did have 0,none, impact on Bryant and Beaz etc...not saying they will work out but you just sound like a bitter old sox fan.

Also Ramirez is not part of the long term plan. At his age, we are already seeing the decline, he had 1 good month this season that made him an all star. Connor it's too early to tell although his best bet might be shifting to 2b to take over for Gordon who has proven to be one of the worst 2b in baseball. I like Connor but I don't know if there is a home for him if Davidson works out.

Thy said keep beating up that straw man...no one is saying Theo is god, no one crowning the cubs the 27 Yankees, they are simply stating the future of 2 last place teams could be very close.
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  #56  
Old 07-16-2014, 08:54 AM
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It's worth noting that the question in this thread is not "Would you trade farm systems with the Cubs?" It is "Would you trade rosters with the Cubs?"

The Sox' 25-man is clearly superior. That's not even a debate. And I would argue the 40-man is superior as well. Remember, Baez, Bryant, Russell, Almora and all the other anointed ones are not on the Cubs' 40-man, while Josh Vitters, Brett Jackson and the great Zac Rosscup are.
The OP clearly said this question is about the teams' rosters from the majors all the way down to the lowest level of the minors. He wasn't asking about the 25-man or 40-man only.

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Originally Posted by CoopaLoop View Post
I am curious if given the opportunity to trade rosters from the majors all the way down to the lowest levels of minors, would you flip with the Cubs? You get to keep rooting for the same laundry, but we flip the rosters going into 2015. Would you do it?
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Old 07-16-2014, 09:03 AM
SI1020 SI1020 is offline
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You realize what Bobby Hill and Hee-Sop choi did have 0,none, impact on Bryant and Beaz etc...not saying they will work out but you just sound like a bitter old sox fan.
Why do any of us have to give a **** about Theo and his best in the history of baseball farm system? Why do we have to entertain the thought of trading rosters even if they are a first place team and we are in last? I made a conscious decision at the age of 6 1/2 to go with the Sox, I don't want to trade and become the Cubs. Not under any circumstances. There have been lots of seismic changes in the country since my father took a job in Chicago in 1953. Chicago and Illinois are no longer the big dogs they once were economically. I remember back in 1967, when times were much better, the Sox fighting for a pennant and still many suggested it was time to move the team. There is no guarantee that Chicago will always be a 2 team MLB city. If and when the day comes that the Cubs have Chicagoland all to themselves then maybe those of us still around can become real Cub fans instead of wannabes.
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Old 07-16-2014, 09:07 AM
Hitmen77 Hitmen77 is offline
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I've been telling Cub fans that Theo's plan is 100% certain to work except for one minor detail. The other 29 teams are doing the same thing, just not to the same drastic degree.

What is the precedence for this approach to work? The most recent example of a team building itself up through mostly high draft picks is Tampa. They made it to one World Series (lost) and since then lost three times in the LDS. Today, Tampa is 9 games below .500. Kansas City is not quite the same thing because they have been signing free agents to complement their farm system. The Tigers went from crap to contenders by spending money to a degree that would make George Steinbrenner blush.
Tampa Bay and Kansas City are small market teams, the Cubs aren't. You suggest the Tigers are the outlier here, but I think where they were 10 years ago is more comparable to the Cubs situation now.

This is just a total guess on my part, but I expect Ricketts to follow the Tigers model of spending like mad if (yes, I said if) their top prospects start showing success at the MLB level. The Cubs are a major market, high attendance, high revenue team. They are not the Kansas City Royals.

....and before anyone flames my reply - I voted No to the poll. So, i'm not advocating swapping total rosters.
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Old 07-16-2014, 09:16 AM
Tragg Tragg is offline
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Originally Posted by CoopaLoop View Post

White Sox:
Sale, Abreu, Eaton and Quintana (he's in any playoff rotation)

Cubs:
Rizzo and Castro
If you're looking at studs, I'd remove Eaton and Castro.
Castro's a little above average SS with a dubious contract. If the Cubs prospects turn out to be like Castro for their positions, they won't win 75 games when they blossom. I do think the Cubs have maybe 5 prospects who show right now that they could be really plus hitters. The Sox have one at that level (Anderson). Cubs have one pitcher, Edwards, and the Sox have Rodon. (maybe Rondon but it's early and he's hurt) .
The Sox also have a bunch of 2nd tier prospects like Chavez and Micah and Hawkins and Davidson that I really hope they use or trade. I would guess the Cubs do too, but I'm just not familiar with their farm.
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Old 07-16-2014, 09:29 AM
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It just speaks to what I said in the Samardzija thread over in Talking Baseball. We have some Sox fans who are real self-loathing. For whatever reason, they buy into the media hype that the Sox are inferior in every way to our North Side counterparts, and that everybody else in baseball should just ****ing give up in the face of this "well-stocked" Cubbie farm system.
Or perhaps some of us who follow all of the majors, including teams' minor league prospects down to low-A in some instances (thank you, enormously deep dynasty league roto ball), think that once one factors in the entirety of the minor league systems, the question becomes closer to a toss-up.

Is it impossible to have an objective analysis? I understand many may disagree with mine, but mine has nothing to do with being a self-loathing Sox fan.
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