White Sox Interactive Forums
Talking Baseball

Welcome
Go Back   White Sox Interactive Forums > Baseball Discussions > Talking Baseball
Home Chat Stats Register Blogs FAQ Calendar Mark Forums Read


Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #61  
Old 07-12-2014, 12:30 PM
kittle42 kittle42 is offline
WSI Prelate
 
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: Lakeview
Posts: 18,227
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by JB98 View Post
Personally, I just get tired of the self-loathing attitude among Sox fans on this board. If Neil Ramirez were on our team and had thrown 25 good innings, we'd have a bunch of posts about how the league will soon adjust to him, blah, blah, blah, blah.

A couple years ago when the Sox picked up Quintana, he pitched well from day one and we had a bunch of people here issuing grave warnings about how he was going to get shelled once the league adjusted to him. Two years later, he's still an effective starting pitcher.

I'm not one to discourage healthy skepticism. There's nothing wrong with watching baseball with a critical eye, but it's kinda silly how some rip the Sox for every step they take, while at the same time praising the Cubs constantly.

When a new player joins the Sox and does well in a small sample size, the attitude is "This won't last." When a new player joins the Cubs (or any other team) and does well in a small sample size, he's "sprinkling his dazzling array of pitches all over the zone."

Sometimes I feel David Kaplan and Bruce Levine are making all the posts here.
Funny how many of the same people who criticize the Sox players suddenly think they should demand top prospects/players when it comes time to trade those guys.

Let's just be honest - if we were talking about the Cardinals or Giants or some team making the same moves with the same players, they would deservedly give praise.

Life is easier when one can be objective. Objectively, the Cubs are continuing to put themselves in what looks to be, on paper, a good position to improve in the coming years.
__________________
Ridiculousness across all sports:

(1) "You have no valid opinion because you never played the game."
(2) "Stats are irrelevant. This guy just doesn't know how to win."
Reply With Quote
  #62  
Old 07-12-2014, 12:48 PM
Brian26's Avatar
Brian26 Brian26 is offline
WSI Guru
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: Chicago
Posts: 29,426
Blog Entries: 52
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by SoxNation05 View Post
Mike Olt was a toss-in in that trade. The Cubs took a flyer on him.
Quote:
Originally Posted by SoxNation05 View Post
You're looking at Olt with full hindsight. That was a calculated, high-risk, low-reward pick up. It didn't work out, but it was the right move in practice.
Talk about revisionist history. This is absolutely, unequivocally, 100% incorrect. The trade was Garza for Olt and two pitching prospects, one of them with a high upside.

You're giving JB a hard time about looking at things in hindsight and you throw out a completely false statement like "Olt was a throw-in." That's a boldface lie. Get out of town with that crap.
__________________


2014 Attendance Record: 4-5; 0.444
Reply With Quote
  #63  
Old 07-12-2014, 01:11 PM
Domeshot17 Domeshot17 is offline
WSI High Priest
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Minooka
Posts: 9,550
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by JB98 View Post
Bull****. I was on this board when the deal was made last year ridiculing the Cubs acquisition of Olt, and I was taken to task by all you folks who think Theo is a genius. See pages 5-7 of this thread.

http://www.whitesoxinteractive.com/v...d.php?t=138706

I'm sure Daniels would take the trade back if he could because Garza didn't work out for them, but Ramirez is only one of these players the Rangers miss.

You're not going to know what Edwards is for two or three more years -- at least. He's the key to the deal for the Cubs. If he becomes a viable piece of their rotation, then this deal works for them. If he busts, it's a generally nondescript deal.

The correct evaluation of this deal from a Cubs perspective is "wait and see." But that's not the evaluation I'm hearing. I'm hearing that Theo and Friends "fleeced" the Rangers. On the basis of what? One relief pitcher with a whole 23.2 big-league innings under his belt?

I can find you 100 other middle relievers who are just like Justin Grimm. Subtract his recent poor outings if you want, but I could just as easily subtract his good outings from April if I want. He's filler. Who cares about him?

If the Sox had made this same deal for Peavy last year, the pitchforks and torches would be out. It's considered a master stroke because its the Cubs and their allies in the media say so. I'm amazed at how many "Sox fans" believe the Cubs propaganda.

And, BTW, there is no such pitcher as "Jason Grimm." Given the fact that you don't know the players names, you might have a future as a Cubs beat writer.
http://rangersblog.dallasnews.com/20...ago-cubs.html/

While he is wrong on a lot of crap he said, so are you. The Cubs did just fine for Garza.

It shocks me how Sox fans want to give Gordon Beckham an endless amount of terrible baseball because he has potential, but Olt is a bust after about 30% of a season in the bigs. Edwards is probably the best player in the trade and is probably a better prospect than anyone in the Sox system not named Rodon.

Just admit you look at the Cubs with hate, and not reality. Its fine if you do, its an insecurity plenty of Sox fans have. But they just got a top 5 prospect in all of baseball, and you are bashing it. The reason you might not get how big it is, is because the Sox have never had a prospect that was that good since the Borchard days. Sale is the only thing close, and he pretty much went right to the majors.

I would kill to have the Cubs farm right now, especially since our major league team isn't really that much better.
__________________
Reply With Quote
  #64  
Old 07-12-2014, 02:55 PM
SoxNation05 SoxNation05 is offline
Banned
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Palos Park
Posts: 1,713
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tragg View Post
BTW, for those who didn't notice, our A ball pitcher we got in the Peavy deal dominated high A and dominated AA up to the point of his injury as well.
Montas probably shows up, at the least, on the majority of the Sox top ten prospect lists. He has the highest ceiling of any pitcher not named Rodon. Winton-Salem's pitching coach, JR Perdew, is a great one and probably had something to do with Montas finding his command and getting a consistent change up.

Quote:
Originally Posted by JB98 View Post
Personally, I just get tired of the self-loathing attitude among Sox fans on this board. If Neil Ramirez were on our team and had thrown 25 good innings, we'd have a bunch of posts about how the league will soon adjust to him, blah, blah, blah, blah.

A couple years ago when the Sox picked up Quintana, he pitched well from day one and we had a bunch of people here issuing grave warnings about how he was going to get shelled once the league adjusted to him. Two years later, he's still an effective starting pitcher.

I'm not one to discourage healthy skepticism. There's nothing wrong with watching baseball with a critical eye, but it's kinda silly how some rip the Sox for every step they take, while at the same time praising the Cubs constantly.

When a new player joins the Sox and does well in a small sample size, the attitude is "This won't last." When a new player joins the Cubs (or any other team) and does well in a small sample size, he's "sprinkling his dazzling array of pitches all over the zone."

Sometimes I feel David Kaplan and Bruce Levine are making all the posts here.
I love how you can lump me in with your sweeping generalities about the site you frequent even though I have posted ~50 times over the last two years. If you're just going to counter by saying "I love the Cubs" I could take than that silly non-sequitur and say "you hate the Cubs" but that adds nothing to the conversation of course.

In regards to Ramirez, you must have never seen him pitch. He has been able to drop his 12-6 curveball for a strike, has his velocity sitting 95+ after becoming a reliever full time and that's not even mentioning his slider which is his best pitch. This is a guy who was a fringe top 100 prospect and had injuries hold him back, but hey, he plays for the Cubs so let's ignore that.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Brian26 View Post
Talk about revisionist history. This is absolutely, unequivocally, 100% incorrect. The trade was Garza for Olt and two pitching prospects, one of them with a high upside.

You're giving JB a hard time about looking at things in hindsight and you throw out a completely false statement like "Olt was a throw-in." That's a boldface lie. Get out of town with that crap.
Since when is an opinion a boldface lie? Were you in the negotiations of this trade? Olt's concussions halted his career. His value absolutely plummeted and everyone who paid attention last year knew that. Care to explain how Olt, despite not losing his prospect status, went from being a consensus top ~30 prospect to not even being ranked, by any publication, in 2014?

Edwards was of the most dominant pitchers in the MiLB when this trade was made and was the center piece of this trade. The Cubs also received three pitchers in the trade so you saying they only got two is a boldfaced lie and absolutely, unequivocally, 100% incorrect.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Domeshot17 View Post
http://rangersblog.dallasnews.com/20...ago-cubs.html/

While he is wrong on a lot of crap he said, so are you. The Cubs did just fine for Garza.

It shocks me how Sox fans want to give Gordon Beckham an endless amount of terrible baseball because he has potential, but Olt is a bust after about 30% of a season in the bigs. Edwards is probably the best player in the trade and is probably a better prospect than anyone in the Sox system not named Rodon.

Just admit you look at the Cubs with hate, and not reality. Its fine if you do, its an insecurity plenty of Sox fans have. But they just got a top 5 prospect in all of baseball, and you are bashing it. The reason you might not get how big it is, is because the Sox have never had a prospect that was that good since the Borchard days. Sale is the only thing close, and he pretty much went right to the majors.

I would kill to have the Cubs farm right now, especially since our major league team isn't really that much better.
Jeez, the man who made the trade publicly admits regret/dismay but I am totally off base according to the WSI elders. Good to see this site does actually have a pulse though.

If Beckham started to suck in '09 because of concussion related vision issues you could be sure he wouldn't still be getting chances in 2014. You can't look at Olt as a regular prospect because the circumstances surrounding him are not any bit regular.

Last edited by SoxNation05; 07-12-2014 at 04:10 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #65  
Old 07-12-2014, 03:44 PM
SI1020 SI1020 is offline
WSI Church Elder
 
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: Deep in the heart of Dixie
Posts: 4,408
Default

I remember the turn of this century when the Sox were supposed to have if not the best then close to the best farm system in baseball. What happened? I'm not saying it's going to turn out that way for the Cubs but the fawning for Theo and his master plan is tiresome. I admit I have neither the time nor the inclination to study the current condition of all 30 mlb farm systems. The Cubs appear to be pretty well stocked at this point. To me Bryant looks like he's close to a can't miss kind of guy. I already said I liked Russell, who they recently acquired from the A's. The rest of the other top 7 or so I'm not ready to anoint as future all stars. I also wonder if they would have traded Samardzija if he indicated to them he wanted to be around for the great turnaround that is surely just around the corner.
Reply With Quote
  #66  
Old 07-12-2014, 04:25 PM
kittle42 kittle42 is offline
WSI Prelate
 
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: Lakeview
Posts: 18,227
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by SI1020 View Post
I admit I have neither the time nor the inclination to study the current condition of all 30 mlb farm systems.
For once, I am not trying to sound snarky, but it takes one Google search and reading maybe 1-2 decent columns to get some base information.
Reply With Quote
  #67  
Old 07-12-2014, 05:42 PM
SI1020 SI1020 is offline
WSI Church Elder
 
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: Deep in the heart of Dixie
Posts: 4,408
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by kittle42 View Post
For once, I am not trying to sound snarky, but it takes one Google search and reading maybe 1-2 decent columns to get some base information.
That's OK. No problem. You don't know me. First of all I take what the poobahs say with a grain of salt. Then I would try to analyze at least the top 20 prospects on each team. That means checking not only their stats but where they come from, what kind of competition did they face as young ballplayers. I also like to see what type of players each team has drafted over the last 10-15 years and what kind of success or lack thereof they've had. You know a big part of the reason I'm not on the saber bandwagon is I've actually spent some time trying within the limits of my brain power to analyze it. I always want more than base information. You don't know me. I'm a pretty thorough guy. Maybe I don't always get it right but I damn sure try.
Reply With Quote
  #68  
Old 07-12-2014, 05:43 PM
TDog TDog is offline
WSI Prelate
 
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: Modesto, California
Posts: 16,256
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by SI1020 View Post
I remember the turn of this century when the Sox were supposed to have if not the best then close to the best farm system in baseball. What happened? I'm not saying it's going to turn out that way for the Cubs but the fawning for Theo and his master plan is tiresome. I admit I have neither the time nor the inclination to study the current condition of all 30 mlb farm systems. The Cubs appear to be pretty well stocked at this point. To me Bryant looks like he's close to a can't miss kind of guy. I already said I liked Russell, who they recently acquired from the A's. The rest of the other top 7 or so I'm not ready to anoint as future all stars. I also wonder if they would have traded Samardzija if he indicated to them he wanted to be around for the great turnaround that is surely just around the corner.
In 2000 when the White Sox won the division, I read from multiple sources that they had the No. 1 farm system in baseball. Maybe 2001 as well. Joe Borchard, I think was rated the No. 12 MLB prospect in 2001. The farm system, especially Joe Borchard, didn't really produce as expected over the next couple of years and it was rated at the bottom.

Kenny Williams was in charge of the farm system when it was highly rated. He was general manager when it was rated at the bottom. Maybe that's part of it. It's also possible that the there is a lot of assumptions and guessing involved in ranking prospects and farm systems.
Reply With Quote
  #69  
Old 07-12-2014, 07:17 PM
Brian26's Avatar
Brian26 Brian26 is offline
WSI Guru
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: Chicago
Posts: 29,426
Blog Entries: 52
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by SoxNation05 View Post
Jeez, the man who made the trade publicly admits regret/dismay but I am totally off base according to the WSI elders. Good to see this site does actually have a pulse though.

According to my notes, you were banned here at WSI for the entire 2012 calendar year and from April '13 to April '14. I'm also reminded of several abusive PMs you sent to certain "elders". That said, you want to question anyone's pulse? Wrong move.

Time to grow up.
Reply With Quote
  #70  
Old 07-12-2014, 07:23 PM
Brian26's Avatar
Brian26 Brian26 is offline
WSI Guru
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: Chicago
Posts: 29,426
Blog Entries: 52
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by SoxNation05 View Post
Since when is an opinion a boldface lie?
It's not. A statement is a lie. Your statement that "Olt was a throw-in" was revisionist history.
Reply With Quote
  #71  
Old 07-12-2014, 09:25 PM
JB98's Avatar
JB98 JB98 is offline
WSI Guru
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Crystal Lake, IL
Posts: 27,465
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by SoxNation05 View Post
Montas probably shows up, at the least, on the majority of the Sox top ten prospect lists. He has the highest ceiling of any pitcher not named Rodon. Winton-Salem's pitching coach, JR Perdew, is a great one and probably had something to do with Montas finding his command and getting a consistent change up.


I love how you can lump me in with your sweeping generalities about the site you frequent even though I have posted ~50 times over the last two years. If you're just going to counter by saying "I love the Cubs" I could take than that silly non-sequitur and say "you hate the Cubs" but that adds nothing to the conversation of course.

In regards to Ramirez, you must have never seen him pitch. He has been able to drop his 12-6 curveball for a strike, has his velocity sitting 95+ after becoming a reliever full time and that's not even mentioning his slider which is his best pitch. This is a guy who was a fringe top 100 prospect and had injuries hold him back, but hey, he plays for the Cubs so let's ignore that.


Since when is an opinion a boldface lie? Were you in the negotiations of this trade? Olt's concussions halted his career. His value absolutely plummeted and everyone who paid attention last year knew that. Care to explain how Olt, despite not losing his prospect status, went from being a consensus top ~30 prospect to not even being ranked, by any publication, in 2014?

Edwards was of the most dominant pitchers in the MiLB when this trade was made and was the center piece of this trade. The Cubs also received three pitchers in the trade so you saying they only got two is a boldfaced lie and absolutely, unequivocally, 100% incorrect.


Jeez, the man who made the trade publicly admits regret/dismay but I am totally off base according to the WSI elders. Good to see this site does actually have a pulse though.

If Beckham started to suck in '09 because of concussion related vision issues you could be sure he wouldn't still be getting chances in 2014. You can't look at Olt as a regular prospect because the circumstances surrounding him are not any bit regular.
I saw him pitch as recently as Thursday against the Reds.
__________________
JB's attendance record:
2004: 14-5; 2005: 16-8; 2006: 19-10; 2007: 8-12; 2008: 15-7; 2009: 6-13; 2010: 12-11; 2011: 9-8; 2012: 11-7; 2013: 8-9; 2014: 7-9; Total: 125-99.
Next game: April 2015

R
ead my new baseball blog: http://thebaseballkid98.blogspot.com/

Reply With Quote
  #72  
Old 07-12-2014, 09:54 PM
Tragg Tragg is offline
WSI Prelate
 
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: Gonzales LA
Posts: 12,930
Blog Entries: 2
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Brian26 View Post
Talk about revisionist history. This is absolutely, unequivocally, 100% incorrect. The trade was Garza for Olt and two pitching prospects, one of them with a high upside.

You're giving JB a hard time about looking at things in hindsight and you throw out a completely false statement like "Olt was a throw-in." That's a boldface lie. Get out of town with that crap.
I don't know about that. Olt was really a tainted prospect when traded.
On the other hand, people are overstating Edwards' prospect ranking at the time of the trade. For example, he was in the 70s in Sickels' midseason list. He was rising and improved with the Cubs and continued to rise.
Reply With Quote
  #73  
Old 07-12-2014, 11:01 PM
rdivaldi rdivaldi is offline
WSI Church Elder
 
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: Chicago - South Loop
Posts: 2,874
Default

Olt was overrated garbage when he was traded and continues to be garbage. It still baffles me why anyone would hold out hope for him or defend his play.
__________________
<a href=http://www.whitesoxinteractive.com/vbulletin/attachment.php?attachmentid=3256 target=_blank>http://www.whitesoxinteractive.com/v...achmentid=3256</a>

March 16, 2005 - Another happy Sox fan joins the party!
July 6, 2012 - 7 years later he's still part of it...
Reply With Quote
  #74  
Old 07-12-2014, 11:41 PM
Tragg Tragg is offline
WSI Prelate
 
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: Gonzales LA
Posts: 12,930
Blog Entries: 2
Default

One thing the Cubs do is get lucky with their players in they are showcasing. Samardjiza has a career year; they have marketable middle relievers. Garza had a great year. Ours get injured or clown it up half the year (like Rios) or just plain tank.
Reply With Quote
  #75  
Old 07-13-2014, 12:15 PM
kittle42 kittle42 is offline
WSI Prelate
 
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: Lakeview
Posts: 18,227
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by SI1020 View Post
That's OK. No problem. You don't know me. First of all I take what the poobahs say with a grain of salt. Then I would try to analyze at least the top 20 prospects on each team. That means checking not only their stats but where they come from, what kind of competition did they face as young ballplayers. I also like to see what type of players each team has drafted over the last 10-15 years and what kind of success or lack thereof they've had. You know a big part of the reason I'm not on the saber bandwagon is I've actually spent some time trying within the limits of my brain power to analyze it. I always want more than base information. You don't know me. I'm a pretty thorough guy. Maybe I don't always get it right but I damn sure try.
I guess I would rather have incomplete information than no information at all. MLB.com has pretty easy-to-browse writeups every season on the Top 100.
Reply With Quote
Reply


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



Forum Jump




All times are GMT -5. The time now is 07:30 AM.




Design by: Michelle

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Site-specific editorial/photos Copyright ©2001 - 2008 White Sox Interactive. All rights reserved.