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  #46  
Old 07-08-2014, 02:46 PM
SI1020 SI1020 is offline
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Originally Posted by Foulke You View Post
Not me. I'm still waiting on young phenoms like Brett Jackson and Josh Vitters myself.
Corey Patterson, Felix Pie, Heep Seop Choi, Ty Griffin, Jerome Walton, Dwight Smith. If I want to go ancient I could mention a bunch of names from my youth that the Cubs promoted as the next (fill in the blank). Most teams prospects don't pan out, it's not just a Cubs thing, but I've been down this road many times before.
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  #47  
Old 07-08-2014, 03:25 PM
Foulke You Foulke You is offline
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Originally Posted by SI1020 View Post
Corey Patterson, Felix Pie, Heep Seop Choi, Ty Griffin, Jerome Walton, Dwight Smith. If I want to go ancient I could mention a bunch of names from my youth that the Cubs promoted as the next (fill in the blank). Most teams prospects don't pan out, it's not just a Cubs thing, but I've been down this road many times before.
You're right, all teams do hype their top prospects. However, I think many of us agree that the Cubs (and the local media) have always taken it to the next level of hype. I actually feel sorry for some of the kids coming up through their system because when they do finally get called up, they are already household names and the fans expect the immediate all star payoff they were promised.
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  #48  
Old 07-08-2014, 04:55 PM
soxnut1018 soxnut1018 is offline
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Originally Posted by Foulke You View Post
You're right, all teams do hype their top prospects. However, I think many of us agree that the Cubs (and the local media) have always taken it to the next level of hype. I actually feel sorry for some of the kids coming up through their system because when they do finally get called up, they are already household names and the fans expect the immediate all star payoff they were promised.
The thing is, it's not even the Cubs or local media creating the hype. They have 3 of the top 6 prospects in baseball. That's insane.
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  #49  
Old 07-08-2014, 06:02 PM
CPditka CPditka is offline
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Originally Posted by GoSox2K3 View Post
The Dempster and Garza trades were duds. Theo probably over-estimated what they would command in a mid-season trade.
Not that they were the worlds best trades, but they still brought back CJ Edwards (#28 MiLB prospect) -- and best pitching prospect. I wouldnt say the Garza deal was a dud.

Im not jealous of the rebuild, or a fan of the tactic of tanking for 4 years, but they did get assets for players that werent going to be on the team when they project to be competitive.
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  #50  
Old 07-09-2014, 12:44 AM
SoxNation05 SoxNation05 is offline
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They did. Everyone was head over heels for Hosmer, Moustakas, Alex Gordon, Delmon Young, Tim Beckham, Evan Longoria, etc...
Yeah and everyone was head over heels for Mike Trout, Bryce Harper and Stephen Strasburg. Evan Longoria has had a pretty decent career himself...

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Originally Posted by JB98 View Post
It's always amazing how much praise is heaped upon the Cubs locally after they make one of these trades. Every decision they make is a master stroke in the eyes of some.

I'm still waiting for Mike Olt's big breakthrough.
Mike Olt was a toss-in in that trade. The Cubs took a flyer on him. The Rangers gave up on him because of his concussion/visibility issues and the Cubs, considering the state of their franchise, took a risk that made a lot of sense. Would you rather play Ian Stewart at 3B or a guy who is a concussion removed from being a blue chip prospect?

I love how you call out the struggling Olt but don't mention the fact that their haul was in a top 50 prospect in Edwards, Jason Grimm (who before a couple rough outings last week had been great) and Neil Ramirez (12.7 K/9 and a 1.19 ERA in his first season). But yeah, the Garza trade sucks because the one guy you had heard of before the trade is struggling.
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  #51  
Old 07-09-2014, 02:10 AM
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Originally Posted by SoxNation05 View Post
Yeah and everyone was head over heels for Mike Trout, Bryce Harper and Stephen Strasburg. Evan Longoria has had a pretty decent career himself...


Mike Olt was a toss-in in that trade. The Cubs took a flyer on him. The Rangers gave up on him because of his concussion/visibility issues and the Cubs, considering the state of their franchise, took a risk that made a lot of sense. Would you rather play Ian Stewart at 3B or a guy who is a concussion removed from being a blue chip prospect?

I love how you call out the struggling Olt but don't mention the fact that their haul was in a top 50 prospect in Edwards, Jason Grimm (who before a couple rough outings last week had been great) and Neil Ramirez (12.7 K/9 and a 1.19 ERA in his first season). But yeah, the Garza trade sucks because the one guy you had heard of before the trade is struggling.
They got more for Feldman than they got for Garza, yet you still hear about how the Cubs "fleeced" the Rangers. Really? OK, Garza didn't work out in Texas, so it wasn't a good deal for the Rangers. But was it really that great a deal for the Cubs?

Olt is lucky he's still in ****ing baseball. He's terrible. Edwards is hurt and hasn't pitched since April. I don't know who the **** Jason Grimm is, but Justin Grimm had a good April for the Cubs but has been erratic ever since. He's just a guy with an ERA near 5 and a WHIP over 1.5, and if he were on the Sox, he'd be on WSI's **** list like Belisario.

So, basically, they've got one guy (Ramirez) who is actually helping them from the Garza deal. And that guy is a relief pitcher. Not a starting pitcher. Not an everyday player. A relief pitcher. Congratulations, Theo, on your great haul. What genius.

At least they got Arrieta for Feldman. That actually was a good deal for them.

You're asking me whether I'd rather play Olt or Ian Stewart at 3B? Well, the Cubs have instead chosen to give Luis Valbuena the majority of the starts at that position this year.
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  #52  
Old 07-09-2014, 09:50 AM
SoxNation05 SoxNation05 is offline
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They got more for Feldman than they got for Garza, yet you still hear about how the Cubs "fleeced" the Rangers. Really? OK, Garza didn't work out in Texas, so it wasn't a good deal for the Rangers. But was it really that great a deal for the Cubs?

Olt is lucky he's still in ****ing baseball. He's terrible. Edwards is hurt and hasn't pitched since April. I don't know who the **** Jason Grimm is, but Justin Grimm had a good April for the Cubs but has been erratic ever since. He's just a guy with an ERA near 5 and a WHIP over 1.5, and if he were on the Sox, he'd be on WSI's **** list like Belisario.

So, basically, they've got one guy (Ramirez) who is actually helping them from the Garza deal. And that guy is a relief pitcher. Not a starting pitcher. Not an everyday player. A relief pitcher. Congratulations, Theo, on your great haul. What genius.

At least they got Arrieta for Feldman. That actually was a good deal for them.

You're asking me whether I'd rather play Olt or Ian Stewart at 3B? Well, the Cubs have instead chosen to give Luis Valbuena the majority of the starts at that position this year.
So because CJ Edwards is injured his value is null and void? I guess Tim Anderson is nothing too then? I am not big on Edwards at all but he was Baseball America's #28 prospect for a reason and currency is currency. If the Sox got a top 25-30 Baseball America prospect this place would be up for grabs but because Edwards got hurt and plays for the Cubs all they got in the trade was "a relief pitcher"? What a joke.

Jason Grimm has had two bad outings in his last three. Without those he is a pitcher with 3.5 ERA and K/9.

You're looking at Olt with full hindsight. That was a calculated, high-risk, low-reward pick up. It didn't work out, but it was the right move in practice.

Then again, Ramirez is looking more than competent sprinkling his dazzling stuff in the zone with ease.

All of this for 2.5 months of Garza. If you think Jon Daniels wouldn't pull a mulligan on this one you're sorely mistaken.
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  #53  
Old 07-09-2014, 10:12 AM
Tragg Tragg is offline
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So at the time of the trade, the Cubs could (and did) say 2 top 100s (Olt hadn't been removed from the lists yet; at the time Edwards was top 100 but had never pitched above low A), a ML starter (Grimm had 17 starts for Texas, but don't mention his ERA near 7), and a ML ready reliever, all for 2 months of Garza! That's a haul, a fleecing, and Theo's just smarter than the rest of the world.
They got a solid return but nothing outrageous.
As for 3 of the top 6, well, Bryant was by far the best hitter in college last year and looks super. (Astros were nuts for passing on him).
The Cubs and Red Sox are unparalleled in hyping their prospects. I just a saw a tweet where one Cubs fan pondered to another whether Baez for Abreu would be a worthwhile deal for the Cubs. The Bosox have themselves convinced that Bogarts is simply too much for them to give up in a trade for Stanton.

Last edited by Tragg; 07-09-2014 at 11:00 AM.
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  #54  
Old 07-09-2014, 01:07 PM
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Originally Posted by SoxNation05 View Post
So because CJ Edwards is injured his value is null and void? I guess Tim Anderson is nothing too then? I am not big on Edwards at all but he was Baseball America's #28 prospect for a reason and currency is currency. If the Sox got a top 25-30 Baseball America prospect this place would be up for grabs but because Edwards got hurt and plays for the Cubs all they got in the trade was "a relief pitcher"? What a joke.

Jason Grimm has had two bad outings in his last three. Without those he is a pitcher with 3.5 ERA and K/9.

You're looking at Olt with full hindsight. That was a calculated, high-risk, low-reward pick up. It didn't work out, but it was the right move in practice.

Then again, Ramirez is looking more than competent sprinkling his dazzling stuff in the zone with ease.

All of this for 2.5 months of Garza. If you think Jon Daniels wouldn't pull a mulligan on this one you're sorely mistaken.
Bull****. I was on this board when the deal was made last year ridiculing the Cubs acquisition of Olt, and I was taken to task by all you folks who think Theo is a genius. See pages 5-7 of this thread.

http://www.whitesoxinteractive.com/v...d.php?t=138706

I'm sure Daniels would take the trade back if he could because Garza didn't work out for them, but Ramirez is only one of these players the Rangers miss.

You're not going to know what Edwards is for two or three more years -- at least. He's the key to the deal for the Cubs. If he becomes a viable piece of their rotation, then this deal works for them. If he busts, it's a generally nondescript deal.

The correct evaluation of this deal from a Cubs perspective is "wait and see." But that's not the evaluation I'm hearing. I'm hearing that Theo and Friends "fleeced" the Rangers. On the basis of what? One relief pitcher with a whole 23.2 big-league innings under his belt?

I can find you 100 other middle relievers who are just like Justin Grimm. Subtract his recent poor outings if you want, but I could just as easily subtract his good outings from April if I want. He's filler. Who cares about him?

If the Sox had made this same deal for Peavy last year, the pitchforks and torches would be out. It's considered a master stroke because its the Cubs and their allies in the media say so. I'm amazed at how many "Sox fans" believe the Cubs propaganda.

And, BTW, there is no such pitcher as "Jason Grimm." Given the fact that you don't know the players names, you might have a future as a Cubs beat writer.
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  #55  
Old 07-09-2014, 01:20 PM
Tragg Tragg is offline
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BTW, for those who didn't notice, our A ball pitcher we got in the Peavy deal dominated high A and dominated AA up to the point of his injury as well.
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  #56  
Old 07-10-2014, 01:02 PM
CoopaLoop CoopaLoop is offline
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A couple of people including myself called the Garza trade a good haul. Lol not a person here was saying it was a fleecing.
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  #57  
Old 07-11-2014, 11:50 AM
Johnnydogs Johnnydogs is offline
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This isn't my battle but the Rangers' trade was viewed to be very bad in the industry; So much that Daniels publically expressed regret for both giving up too much for Garza and on his players. Some national baseball writers claimed grumblings among other GMs because that kind of return set an unrealistic expectation for future trades. Garza was a 2 month rental (who sucked for them even though that's hindsight) and they gave up a talented pitching prospect, two Major League pitchers (speculation is Ramirez will be turned into a starter) and a 3rd base guy who was once highly regarded. All for a guy they weren't going to keep. Olt has been home run or bust but really anything they get out of him is gravy. He still only a few months away from the concussion issues so who knows if he'll improve. Either way, it was a lopsided trade.
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  #58  
Old 07-11-2014, 02:03 PM
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Personally, I just get tired of the self-loathing attitude among Sox fans on this board. If Neil Ramirez were on our team and had thrown 25 good innings, we'd have a bunch of posts about how the league will soon adjust to him, blah, blah, blah, blah.

A couple years ago when the Sox picked up Quintana, he pitched well from day one and we had a bunch of people here issuing grave warnings about how he was going to get shelled once the league adjusted to him. Two years later, he's still an effective starting pitcher.

I'm not one to discourage healthy skepticism. There's nothing wrong with watching baseball with a critical eye, but it's kinda silly how some rip the Sox for every step they take, while at the same time praising the Cubs constantly.

When a new player joins the Sox and does well in a small sample size, the attitude is "This won't last." When a new player joins the Cubs (or any other team) and does well in a small sample size, he's "sprinkling his dazzling array of pitches all over the zone."

Sometimes I feel David Kaplan and Bruce Levine are making all the posts here.
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  #59  
Old 07-11-2014, 02:43 PM
Moses_Scurry Moses_Scurry is offline
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Originally Posted by JB98 View Post
Personally, I just get tired of the self-loathing attitude among Sox fans on this board. If Neil Ramirez were on our team and had thrown 25 good innings, we'd have a bunch of posts about how the league will soon adjust to him, blah, blah, blah, blah.

A couple years ago when the Sox picked up Quintana, he pitched well from day one and we had a bunch of people here issuing grave warnings about how he was going to get shelled once the league adjusted to him. Two years later, he's still an effective starting pitcher.

I'm not one to discourage healthy skepticism. There's nothing wrong with watching baseball with a critical eye, but it's kinda silly how some rip the Sox for every step they take, while at the same time praising the Cubs constantly.

When a new player joins the Sox and does well in a small sample size, the attitude is "This won't last." When a new player joins the Cubs (or any other team) and does well in a small sample size, he's "sprinkling his dazzling array of pitches all over the zone."

Sometimes I feel David Kaplan and Bruce Levine are making all the posts here.
Case in point: Jake Arietta
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  #60  
Old 07-11-2014, 04:57 PM
Foulke You Foulke You is offline
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Originally Posted by JB98 View Post
Personally, I just get tired of the self-loathing attitude among Sox fans on this board. If Neil Ramirez were on our team and had thrown 25 good innings, we'd have a bunch of posts about how the league will soon adjust to him, blah, blah, blah, blah.

A couple years ago when the Sox picked up Quintana, he pitched well from day one and we had a bunch of people here issuing grave warnings about how he was going to get shelled once the league adjusted to him. Two years later, he's still an effective starting pitcher.

I'm not one to discourage healthy skepticism. There's nothing wrong with watching baseball with a critical eye, but it's kinda silly how some rip the Sox for every step they take, while at the same time praising the Cubs constantly.

When a new player joins the Sox and does well in a small sample size, the attitude is "This won't last." When a new player joins the Cubs (or any other team) and does well in a small sample size, he's "sprinkling his dazzling array of pitches all over the zone."

Sometimes I feel David Kaplan and Bruce Levine are making all the posts here.
Excellent post. 100% agree. (I remember the Quintana posts about how he didn't have enough velocity to survive his second time through the league.)
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