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  #46  
Old 07-04-2014, 01:25 PM
Paulwny Paulwny is offline
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Originally Posted by kufram View Post
My point was that everybody knew who was in charge and where the buck stopped.
Ah the good old days. Management having complete control over a players life. One year contracts, you better put up numbers. Many players not taking time off to attend family funerals or family illnesses, afraid of losing their position and missing games to add to their stats.
Players were afraid of management back then.
Now with FA and multiyear contracts management no longer has complete control over a player's life.
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  #47  
Old 07-04-2014, 01:58 PM
SI1020 SI1020 is offline
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Originally Posted by TomBradley72 View Post
I don't care how talented the team is- if a manager delivers 5 consecutive World Series championships, 9 pennants in 10 years (one of the years they DIDN'T win- they won 101 games)- he was a pretty good manager-he was pretty innovative for his era- leveraging match ups for his starting pitching vs. specfiic clubs, an emphasis on the bullpen and platooning- pretty good write up here:

http://waswatching.com/2009/12/17/bo...casey-stengel/
I don't agree with that critical assessment of Stengel. I found him to be baseball wise and most entertaining. He even had his own brand of English the press called "Stengelese". Despite his unbelievably stellar record he was unceremoniously fired after his Yanks dropped a 7 game WS to the Pirates in 1960 despite outscoring them 55-27. Stengel was blamed for starting Art Ditmar in game 1, which went to the Pirates 6-4. Whitey Ford pitched 2 complete game shutouts in that series and it was thought that Stengel should have sent him to the mound 3 times.

Last edited by SI1020; 07-04-2014 at 02:06 PM.
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  #48  
Old 07-04-2014, 02:20 PM
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Chez Chez is offline
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Originally Posted by Golden Sox View Post
I will always have a warm spot in my heart for the Mets. Looking back at that 1969 season,has to be one of the greatest things I have seen in baseball. Young people have no idea how the Cubs talked and ran there mouths off. Ron Pizza Man/Scab/ Santo was the main villain. He even said that the Mets infield belonged in Tacoma. Theres a old saying, If you're going to talk the talk, you better walk the walk. The Mets kept winning and and the Cubs kept losing in September of 69. Pizza Man never got over the 69 season. He has always talked about how great the 69 Cubs team was. Yet that same team was together for years and they were never in the playoffs once.
Cubs blew it in 1960 AND 1970. After the choke job in 1970, I told myself that I had had enough (I was 11 at the time and a huge Cub fan) and switched allegiances from Cubs to Sox. And thank God I did!
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  #49  
Old 07-04-2014, 03:21 PM
TDog TDog is offline
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Originally Posted by kufram View Post
Those guys were leaders, win or lose. There is not much leadership around these days.
It's a different kind of leadership. The Leo Durocher leadership in 1947 was important in Jackie Robinson's rookie year. He let it be known that dissent wouldn't be tolerated. And his leadership helped bring the Cubs around in 1967, the season Chicago turned to being a Cubs city. But it wasn't there in 1969. Leaving the team during a critical series did as much damage as playing his regulars too much when he was there. In 1970, the Cubs played themselves out of the race much earlier in the season.

Jim Bouton wrote (I think it was the first book after Ball Four) about Durocher having no respect at his next job with the Astros. Durocher made some sort of announcement in the clubhouse that he was having dinner or something with "Frank" as in Sinatra. One player, I think it was future manager Doug Rader, replied in a way that would trigger the language filter that nobody in the clubhouse cared about Frank.

It isn't that managers don't have the fortitude to be old-school leaders as much as players wouldn't respect old-school leaders. Eddie Stanky came back to manage the Texas Rangers after being retired for years. Eddie Stanky was a leader. He was one of the players with the anti-Jackie Robinson petition that Durocher shut down, and he a next-generation Durocher. He came back to the Texas Rangers nine years after he was fired by the White Sox. He quit after the winning the game.

No one would hire someone in the Stengel, Durocher or Stanky mode today. And if they did, the manager wouldn't keep his job if he worked that way.
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  #50  
Old 07-05-2014, 03:21 AM
kufram kufram is offline
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Originally Posted by Paulwny View Post
Ah the good old days. Management having complete control over a players life. One year contracts, you better put up numbers. Many players not taking time off to attend family funerals or family illnesses, afraid of losing their position and missing games to add to their stats.
Players were afraid of management back then.
Now with FA and multiyear contracts management no longer has complete control over a player's life.

Well, of course you can be sarcastic and go on any tangents you want to.

I made a point about the the manager and particularly about field and clubhouse leadership not management, who decide contract terms, make collective bargaining agreements, etc.

Personally, on that front and my own tangent, I wouldn't mind a couple of outfielders who had enough fear for their careers to actually have learnt how to play the positions.
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