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  #46  
Old 06-24-2014, 10:36 PM
cv sox fan cv sox fan is offline
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robin sucks as a manager! he has no clue on how to handle a bullpen,being good for young players is winning we could be around 500 but not with him. we rewarded a 99 loss seasons with an contract extension sometimes management moves make me want to vomit at least under ozzie we got excitement robin just sits and blows bubbles
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  #47  
Old 06-24-2014, 11:36 PM
shingo10 shingo10 is offline
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In 2012 with an outfield of De Aza, Viceido, and Rios and an infield of Ramirez, Beckham, Konerko, Hudson/Youk the Sox were first in the AL in fielding percentage and had the fewest amount of errors.

At the time a lot was made of the fielding practice the Sox would do before every first game of the series on the road as it was a refreshing change from the Ozzie era.

In 2013 we ranked 14 out of 15 in both of those categories. This year so far we are ranked 12 out of 15.

Do they still hold those practices on the road? The 2012 roster was certainly not full of great defense so why such a dramatic drop? This is my biggest issue with Robin and the coaching staff. You can't give away as many games as we do with poor defense and expect to contend.
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  #48  
Old 06-25-2014, 12:40 AM
SoxFanCPA SoxFanCPA is offline
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Yes, I'm well ****ing aware that Ventura doesn't have many options in the pen, mostly because of youth. The problem with Ventura is he picked the worst of all the options! Belisario's ERA is now 5.59. Seriously, 5.59!!! That is the worst in the bullpen, and the only reason it's close is because the other guy Robin brought in for the 9th inning tonight is right behind with a 5.32.

Besides the sixth starter/long reliever, the other 4 ERAs in the bullpen are 2.19, 2.21, 2.22, and 3.06. Do people seriously not see how stupid Robin Ventura is? There is no defending this decision. None.
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  #49  
Old 06-25-2014, 12:55 AM
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doublem23 doublem23 is offline
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Originally Posted by SoxFanCPA View Post
Yes, I'm well ****ing aware that Ventura doesn't have many options in the pen, mostly because of youth. The problem with Ventura is he picked the worst of all the options! Belisario's ERA is now 5.59. Seriously, 5.59!!! That is the worst in the bullpen, and the only reason it's close is because the other guy Robin brought in for the 9th inning tonight is right behind with a 5.32.

Besides the sixth starter/long reliever, the other 4 ERAs in the bullpen are 2.19, 2.21, 2.22, and 3.06. Do people seriously not see how stupid Robin Ventura is? There is no defending this decision. None.
Earned Run Average is not a really well respected metric, but it's especially useless for evaluating relief pitchers, who do not get punished for allowing inherited runners to score (which, for high leverage relievers, is kind of the point of them being on the roster).

Most advanced stat guys prefer FIP, Fielding Independent Pitching, which roughly measures how good a pitcher is at preventing HR and BB and getting K's; basically; how well they measure at achieving the outcomes that do not require the 8 guys behind them for help.

Of the current Sox bullpen, YTD FIPs are:

Belisario: 3.17
Putnam: 3.55
Downs: 3.55
Petricka: 3.57
Guerra: 3.90
Webb: 4.50
Carroll: 5.07

So again, it's not quite as cut and dry and you'd make it out to be. The best argument I can see against Belisario is that he is indeed much more effective in every inning other than the 9th. For some reason he just wilts in the 9th inning, slash line against him in the 9th inning this year is .383/.424/.533. In the 8th inning, guys are hitting .213/.240/.298 against him. That's an insane split.
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  #50  
Old 06-25-2014, 01:24 AM
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Originally Posted by kittle42 View Post
Testify, my brother. Love this post.
Reed blew a save tonight against the Indians. I've never seen anything like that before.
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  #51  
Old 06-25-2014, 08:28 AM
24thStFan 24thStFan is offline
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Robin has many experiences and strengths that made him a good candidate for the manager's job. He played for several organizations and managers, he was an excellent fielding 3B, and he has good communication skills. But even with two and a half years of on-the-job training, he hasn't been able to translate these attributes into positive results.

Sure, some of the responsibility is on the organization for not giving Ventura the talent he needs, but some of it belongs to Robin. He hasn't done the job.
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  #52  
Old 06-25-2014, 09:14 AM
dickallen15 dickallen15 is online now
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Tony managed a couple of White Sox farm teams and coached briefly with the MLB team before he was plucked from AAA Iowa to replace Kessinger because Veeck had a cow when Kessinger didn't pinch hit for the pitcher in a blowout loss.
You do realize your story about Veeck and Kessinger makes no sense don't you? DH and no interleague. And not only that, Veeck was so strapped for cash he wouldn't have fired Kessinger for something like that and had to pay 2 guys. Veeck was so cheap when he had to release Schueler he made him a pitching coach, as long as he was paying him,he might as well have him do something.

Last edited by dickallen15; 06-25-2014 at 09:20 AM.
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  #53  
Old 06-25-2014, 09:22 AM
dickallen15 dickallen15 is online now
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I get a kick out of all the LaRussa references. It was long before the internet, but talk radio was very popular, and Tony, when he was managing the White Sox, was about as popular and highly thought of as Robin is in this thread. ..
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  #54  
Old 06-25-2014, 10:22 AM
kittle42 kittle42 is offline
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Originally Posted by JB98 View Post
Reed blew a save tonight against the Indians. I've never seen anything like that before.
As someone who follows the NL closer than the AL, I can confidently say Reed wouldn't be the closer in Arizona if (1) they didn't suck, and (2) they had an in-house option they actually liked.
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  #55  
Old 06-25-2014, 10:32 AM
Harry Chappas Harry Chappas is offline
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The problem with that is the Sox dont have tradeable assets (Peavy, Rios, Santiago) in order to make moves like last year. The only real asset is Ramirez.


I forgot Reed.
Fair point, but Dunn and Beckham might yield something. I doubt there's an Avisail Garcia deal to be had but they might be able to find something along the lines of Davidson (I still think that could work out).
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  #56  
Old 06-25-2014, 11:15 AM
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Ventura said that, even though his team has been struggling, he hasn't come close to panicking. Over the recent five-game losing streak, the White Sox were outscored by only seven runs.

"This is just not getting that run, that extra hit that we need," Ventura said, comparing this year's skid to some of last year's struggles. "There's a lot of different things that go into it. It's not as sloppy as last year."

http://chicago.whitesox.mlb.com/mlb/...1&mode=preview
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  #57  
Old 06-25-2014, 11:32 AM
Crestani Crestani is offline
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Originally Posted by doublem23 View Post
Earned Run Average is not a really well respected metric, but it's especially useless for evaluating relief pitchers, who do not get punished for allowing inherited runners to score (which, for high leverage relievers, is kind of the point of them being on the roster).

Most advanced stat guys prefer FIP, Fielding Independent Pitching, which roughly measures how good a pitcher is at preventing HR and BB and getting K's; basically; how well they measure at achieving the outcomes that do not require the 8 guys behind them for help.

Of the current Sox bullpen, YTD FIPs are:

Belisario: 3.17
Putnam: 3.55
Downs: 3.55
Petricka: 3.57
Guerra: 3.90
Webb: 4.50
Carroll: 5.07

So again, it's not quite as cut and dry and you'd make it out to be. The best argument I can see against Belisario is that he is indeed much more effective in every inning other than the 9th. For some reason he just wilts in the 9th inning, slash line against him in the 9th inning this year is .383/.424/.533. In the 8th inning, guys are hitting .213/.240/.298 against him. That's an insane split.


Could the reason for this be the roll-over in lineups as to who comes to bat in the 8th inning vs. the ninth..??
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  #58  
Old 06-25-2014, 11:38 AM
kittle42 kittle42 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by doublem23 View Post
Of the current Sox bullpen, YTD FIPs are:

Belisario: 3.17
Putnam: 3.55
Downs: 3.55
Petricka: 3.57
Guerra: 3.90
Webb: 4.50
Carroll: 5.07
Wow. For those of you who don't know, here is a general range of FIP:

Excellent 2.90
Great 3.25
Above average 3.75
Average 4.00
Below average 4.20
Poor 4.50
Awful 5.00

Hard to believe Downs and Bellisario. The rest seem about right.
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  #59  
Old 06-25-2014, 11:41 AM
Domeshot17 Domeshot17 is offline
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Originally Posted by kittle42 View Post
Wow. For those of you who don't know, here is a general range of FIP:

Excellent 2.90
Great 3.25
Above average 3.75
Average 4.00
Below average 4.20
Poor 4.50
Awful 5.00

Hard to believe Downs and Bellisario. The rest seem about right.
Is it possible to find Carrol's FIP as an RP, his RP/SP splits are crazy
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  #60  
Old 06-25-2014, 11:52 AM
kittle42 kittle42 is offline
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Originally Posted by Domeshot17 View Post
Is it possible to find Carrol's FIP as an RP, his RP/SP splits are crazy
Here it is.

5.49 v. 4.52, so per FIP, at least, he stinks in both roles. His standard numbers as a reliever look much better.

Can someone with a better understanding of FIP tell us why there is such a huge difference for a guy like Bellisario or Downs or for Carroll as a reliever?
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