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  #16  
Old 06-24-2014, 01:50 PM
SoxFanCPA SoxFanCPA is offline
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After the game Friday, I was completely done with Ventura as manager. Belisario with the game on the line? His handling of the bullpen is atrocious.
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  #17  
Old 06-24-2014, 01:54 PM
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Originally Posted by ddog528 View Post
Didn't know Addison Reed was Trevor Hoffman. Silly me
Yeah, last year Reed "made people nervous." Now, he's perceived as a top-notch closer. He wasn't a top-notch closer with the Sox, and he's not a top-notch closer now. He was hardly a beloved figure on this board last year when he was giving up ninth inning bombs to Giambi and Swisher, or dutifully blowing five-run leads in Seattle and Detroit.

And, it's way too early to give up on Davidson, although I know people already have. But that's only because people are stupid. He's still only 23. Jim Thome is working with him. We'll see if that helps.
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  #18  
Old 06-24-2014, 02:02 PM
hawkjt hawkjt is offline
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Davidson has to come thru...need a platoon at 3rd to take some pressure off of Conor's balky glove.

Robin is the right guy for a young team like this. He is steady, and consistent, which allows young players to relax and perform.

He is probably a point A to point B guy, so when the young guys are ready to win...maybe he will go away.
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  #19  
Old 06-24-2014, 02:18 PM
smac38 smac38 is offline
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Originally Posted by hawkjt View Post
He is probably a point A to point B guy, so when the young guys are ready to win...maybe he will go away.
I understand when organizations do that, like Savard did with the Hawks, but in those scenarios, the manager/coach is providing a lot of insight and support as far as fundamentals and the small things go. I just don't see that with Ventura.

As we all know, their fundamentals have been god awful under this staff, and even if they're trying to teach them, the message isn't getting through, and when you're trying to mold younger players, I think you need that.

Just my 2 cents.
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  #20  
Old 06-24-2014, 02:29 PM
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Originally Posted by SoxFanCPA View Post
After the game Friday, I was completely done with Ventura as manager. Belisario with the game on the line? His handling of the bullpen is atrocious.
Yeah, why would that idiot put the closest thing we have to a closer in in a save situation?! It's madness I tell you!
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  #21  
Old 06-24-2014, 02:31 PM
MISoxfan MISoxfan is offline
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I don't think Cooper is riding the coattails of 2005 at all. Nearly every single season we have above average pitching. This year was a total rework of the bullpen and if it weren't for injuries we would probably have an above average bullpen again. Our starting 5 is dragging us down, but I find it hard to blame Cooper when we started with 3 projects at SP

I do agree that Cooper needs to be a pitching coach and that's it. It does seem that his strengths are limited to working with pitchers and not making game decisions.
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  #22  
Old 06-24-2014, 03:37 PM
kittle42 kittle42 is offline
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Originally Posted by JB98 View Post
Yeah, last year Reed "made people nervous." Now, he's perceived as a top-notch closer. He wasn't a top-notch closer with the Sox, and he's not a top-notch closer now. He was hardly a beloved figure on this board last year when he was giving up ninth inning bombs to Giambi and Swisher, or dutifully blowing five-run leads in Seattle and Detroit.

And, it's way too early to give up on Davidson, although I know people already have. But that's only because people are stupid.
Testify, my brother. Love this post.
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  #23  
Old 06-24-2014, 04:02 PM
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Originally Posted by XplodingScorbord View Post
Yeah, why would that idiot put the closest thing we have to a closer in in a save situation?! It's madness I tell you!
1. It wasn't a save situation.

2. Belisario isn't the closest thing we have to a closer, he just has the title as given by Robin.
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  #24  
Old 06-24-2014, 04:37 PM
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Originally Posted by SoxFanCPA View Post
2. Belisario isn't the closest thing we have to a closer, he just has the title as given by Robin.
I think you're really splitting hairs here, who is this mystery closer on the Sox roster that Ventura is scheming to keep out of the limelight? It's not like this bullpen is made up of 6 Mariano Riveras and 1 Ronnie Belisario...

Webb? Okay, fine in terms of future development but he still walks like 6 guys per 9 IP. Ouch. Guerra? A guy who has had a chance to close games and lost it in Los Angeles. Petricka or Putnam? I guess, but in moving one you'd essentially be filling one hole by creating another as they have been, far and away, our best relief pitchers this year and you'd think "smart" bullpen management would be to use them in a variety of high leverage scenarios instead of shoe-horning them into the 9th inning exclusively. Not to mention, they each have a FIP higher than Belisario, indicating, at least some of their relative success against Ronnie's has been based somewhat on luck (batted balls not finding the ground, etc.).
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  #25  
Old 06-24-2014, 04:55 PM
SCCWS SCCWS is offline
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Apparently some had higher expectations for this season than I did. My expectation is that the 2014 Sox will finish around .500 - give or take a few games. Hahn has done a great job in starting a rebuild, but he's not done. The line-up has been improved with some young talent. Pitching remains an issue, particularly the back end of the rotation. The bullpen has some solid contributors, but there's certainly room for improvement. This team isn't meant to contend at this point and being good enough to win a mediocre division in 2014 should not be the goal.

Let's see what Hahn does at the trade deadline and during the offseason. In the meantime, enjoy watching the beginning of a good nucleus of young players competing together (Sale, Quintana, Abreu, Eaton...Garcia when he returns). Ramirez and Beckham are having good seasons so far and Gillespie is a very serviceable third basemen. Decisions will need to be made on the future of players like Dunn, Beckham, Ramirez, and Viciedo for performance and/or financial reasons. There will probably be another round of trades and free agent signings over the next few months. There will be more talk about Micah Johnson's future with the Sox.

I, for one, have no problem watching a couple of mediocre seasons while the team works toward assembling what will hopefully be a serious contender.
The only problem with your analysis is finishing around .500. They have been struggling within the division lately and they have a lot of games left in the division. What happens if they finish 15-20 games below .500 which is the pace they are at right now???
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  #26  
Old 06-24-2014, 04:55 PM
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Originally Posted by doublem23 View Post
Webb? Okay, fine in terms of future development but he still walks like 6 guys per 9 IP. Ouch. Guerra? A guy who has had a chance to close games and lost it in Los Angeles. Petricka or Putnam? I guess, but in moving one you'd essentially be filling one hole by creating another as they have been, far and away, our best relief pitchers this year and you'd think "smart" bullpen management would be to use them in a variety of high leverage scenarios instead of shoe-horning them into the 9th inning exclusively. Not to mention, they each have a FIP higher than Belisario, indicating, at least some of their relative success against Ronnie's has been based somewhat on luck (batted balls not finding the ground, etc.).
Exactly. This bullpen doesn't have a Clippard or even a Casilla who is simply being blocked by a closer...it's a bunch of guys who may or may not have much of a major league future, several of whom have generally pitched well thus far, and a vet who looks like he has lost it, mostly (Downs).
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  #27  
Old 06-24-2014, 05:14 PM
Irishsox1 Irishsox1 is offline
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Robin is in over his head and it's been that way since day 1. You don't hire a guy who's never coached or managed at any level and give them the manager's position of the Chicago White Sox. Go off and be a minor league manager at least before getting the job. Saying that, Robin is now managed over 400 games for the Sox and his winning percentage is below Jim Fregosi who got fired after his 3rd year. Bottom line, Robin losses to many games. There are people out there that say the Sox are rebuilding and I disagree, the additions of Eaton and Abreau have changed the team for the better and they have the talent to win at least a wild card this year.

If Hahn wants to get to the playoffs this year he should fire Ventura now which will send a message to the team. If Hahn is alright with giving Robin the benefit of the doubt, let him finish the year but he better be prepared for 90+ losses.
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  #28  
Old 06-24-2014, 05:17 PM
Domeshot17 Domeshot17 is offline
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Do people have this misconception we are really a contender? I see people on the WSI facebook group blaming him for everything and its such ignorant comments.

Ventura has been handed 4 OF to run out that are sub .700 OPS hitters.... Flowers is coming back to earth.. Gordon has reverted to being just okay... We have 1 dominant starter and a bunch of back end guys (Quintana is a decent 3, but he is giving up over a hit per inning and his 1.32 whip is good enough 72nd in league, ERA good enough for 62nd, hes a fine 3, nothing more more nothing less).

Ventura has not 1 experienced closer in his pen, and a pen made out of young pitchers (who are notorious for having ups and downs) and a bunch of retread journeymen (who are notorious for having ups and downs).

You can't just burn these young kids every game out of the pen, or you risk injuring them.

We had a nice surprise of having a decent offense, then we lost our 2nd best hitter to injury early. Abreu is a guy you build around, but right now Ventura's job is to develop, not win. I know that is painful to hear, but we have to stop this SCREW THE FUTURE FOR 84 WINS mentality we have had, and start trying to be legitimate contenders.

In terms of talent, the Tigers have more, the Royals have more, the Tribe has more. That is not Ventura's fault.
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  #29  
Old 06-24-2014, 05:20 PM
Domeshot17 Domeshot17 is offline
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Originally Posted by Irishsox1 View Post
Robin is in over his head and it's been that way since day 1. You don't hire a guy who's never coached or managed at any level and give them the manager's position of the Chicago White Sox. Go off and be a minor league manager at least before getting the job. Saying that, Robin is now managed over 400 games for the Sox and his winning percentage is below Jim Fregosi who got fired after his 3rd year. Bottom line, Robin losses to many games. There are people out there that say the Sox are rebuilding and I disagree, the additions of Eaton and Abreau have changed the team for the better and they have the talent to win at least a wild card this year.

If Hahn wants to get to the playoffs this year he should fire Ventura now which will send a message to the team. If Hahn is alright with giving Robin the benefit of the doubt, let him finish the year but he better be prepared for 90+ losses.
The Tigers (Ausmus) and Cardinals (Matheny) seem to prove all of this wrong.
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  #30  
Old 06-24-2014, 05:23 PM
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doublem23 doublem23 is offline
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Originally Posted by Irishsox1 View Post
You don't hire a guy who's never coached or managed at any level and give them the manager's position of the Chicago White Sox.
This has surely been raised, but it bears repeating... Both the Tigers and Cardinals, two of the more enviably run outfits right now, did the exact same thing. Neither Ausmus or Matheny had any level of coaching or managerial experience before being hired to their positions. And, of course, next month the Hall of Fame will induct two guys, Tony LaRussa and Joe Torre, into baseball immortality as managers despite the fact neither of them had a game of coaching or managerial experience under their belts before being given MLB managerial jobs.
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