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  #46  
Old 06-23-2014, 11:00 AM
Foulke You Foulke You is offline
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Originally Posted by JB98 View Post
Jared Burton and his 5.64 ERA close out the game. That's a fitting exclamation point to a series characterized by Sox hitters making bad pitchers look good.

I know De Aza is the whipping boy around here, but Viciedo and Flowers are two guys the Sox need to move on from. I was glad to see Viciedo's ass on the bench to start the game today, but then he appeared in the ninth inning to swing at bad pitches and give away an at-bat like usual.

Garcia's injury was huge, and we're seeing the effects of that loss more and more as the season progresses. It's been a long time since the Sox were this bad at the corner outfield spots. Sierra is no answer either, unless the question is, "Who is going to suck as the White Sox fourth outfielder for the rest of 2014?"
100% agree. The team has other problems too but the dynamic duo of Viciedo and Flowers has really stood out to me as a giant albatross during this slump the Sox have been in. Both hitters came out of the gate hitting everything in sight but since May have been playing far below replacement level and striking out at a ridiculous rate. Since we are playing for the future, I see no reason why they shouldn't get Nieto as many ABs as possible.

Since May 1st:

Tyler Flowers .162avg (19 for 117 with 53Ks, 12 BBs)
Dayan Viciedo .193avg (34 for 176 with 40Ks, 8 BBs)

They have both been trending even worse in June than they were in May. Viciedo has a paltry 2 RBIs and 1HR this month. Flowers is hitting .089 and Viciedo is hitting .134 in the month of June. There are probably backup catchers and NL pitchers that have more offensive production in June than these two. I realize we don't have a ton of roster options but isn't it at least worth it to *try* someone else out there? At least a benching for a few days?
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  #47  
Old 06-23-2014, 11:08 AM
smac38 smac38 is offline
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Originally Posted by Foulke You View Post
I realize we don't have a ton of roster options but isn't it at least worth it to *try* someone else out there? At least a benching for a few days?
I don't understand how they aren't giving Nieto more time back there. I know the guy isn't a powerhouse or world beater by any means, but he's been serviceable and you might as well see what the kid can do.

Unless they're trying to get Flowers play himself out of the league, I see no harm in giving Nieto more AB's.
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  #48  
Old 06-23-2014, 11:13 AM
Foulke You Foulke You is offline
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I don't understand how they aren't giving Nieto more time back there. I know the guy isn't a powerhouse or world beater by any means, but he's been serviceable and you might as well see what the kid can do.

Unless they're trying to get Flowers play himself out of the league, I see no harm in giving Nieto more AB's.
Nieto has been steadily showing improvement as the season has gone on as he continues to adjust to MLB. At the very least, Nieto should be equally sharing catching duties with Flowers at this point and not backing him up.
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  #49  
Old 06-23-2014, 11:18 AM
GoSox2K3 GoSox2K3 is offline
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Sox are 35-41. On June 22 last year, they were 31-41. Tied in the loss column with last year's team - woo!!!

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Unreal.
"Believe It"

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Meanwhile, Alex Rios is among the league leaders in hits. Salary relief was nice, because it helped to sign Abreu, but dumping Rios created a hole in the outfield.

Viciedo and DeAza should be fourth OFs. Danks and Sierra should be fifth OFs.
This is the key right here. The Rios trade was nothing more than a salary dump. I don't have a problem with that. It could very well be that the Sox wouldn't have landed Abreu if they still had Alex's contract on their books.

Rios looks great now, but this is a contract year for him. The Rangers have an option on his contract for 2015. Not surprised to see him looking good for Texas right now.
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  #50  
Old 06-23-2014, 11:23 AM
smac38 smac38 is offline
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Nieto has been steadily showing improvement as the season has gone on as he continues to adjust to MLB. At the very least, Nieto should be equally sharing catching duties with Flowers at this point and not backing him up.
I completely agree. The fact that he'd never played higher than A ball, prior to this year and is playing at an equal, if not higher level than Flowers, tells me all I need to know about Flowers.
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  #51  
Old 06-23-2014, 12:35 PM
kittle42 kittle42 is offline
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Their infatuation with Flowers is baffling. Guy brings nothing to the table. Just horrid defensively, too.
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  #52  
Old 06-23-2014, 01:02 PM
WhiteSox5187 WhiteSox5187 is offline
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Their infatuation with Flowers is baffling. Guy brings nothing to the table. Just horrid defensively, too.
The pitchers seem to like him and he is better at framing pitches than Nieto is. Personally, if Flowers and Quintana like Flowers so much, he should catch for just them and give Nieto the other starts. Unless they're worried about Nieto struggling and not handling them well.
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  #53  
Old 06-23-2014, 01:29 PM
Irishsox1 Irishsox1 is offline
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Rios had to go, the guy is talented but a head case. Don't miss that guy at all. Rios and Peavy were so similar, I was consistently reminded by the media how awesome they were but if it was a big game, they couldn't come through.

As for Flowers, he's been playing better this year, his defense is better and he's had some good at bats working walks or laying down bunts. Saying that, he strikes out way too much and at 28 years old, it the light bulb hasn't gone off yet, it's better to start working towards the future rather than spend time on a 28 year old project.
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  #54  
Old 06-23-2014, 01:32 PM
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JB98 JB98 is offline
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On the whole the talent is there on this team with the exception of maybe 1 or 2 people but they are very inconsistent with their effort and attention to detail. The team plays flat.

I'm surprised more people are not calling for Ventura to be fired. The guy is a dud with no pulse and his team plays like it.
The Sox don't need more "fire and passion" from the manager. They need better players.
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  #55  
Old 06-23-2014, 01:33 PM
amsteel amsteel is offline
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The pitchers seem to like him and he is better at framing pitches than Nieto is.
True, but they're both below average.
http://www.statcorner.com/CatcherReport.php
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  #56  
Old 06-23-2014, 01:55 PM
shingo10 shingo10 is offline
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Apparently we have a catching prospect....


https://twitter.com/jnorris427/statu...16114437074945
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  #57  
Old 06-23-2014, 02:02 PM
Foulke You Foulke You is offline
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True, but they're both below average.
http://www.statcorner.com/CatcherReport.php
Also, Flowers is what he is defensively and will not improve. Nieto is still learning to receive MLB quality pitchers and has room to get better. He was quoted as saying that there aren't too many guys in A ball that have the pitch movement in MLB.
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  #58  
Old 06-23-2014, 02:38 PM
white sox bill white sox bill is offline
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It was a good .500 run while it lasted, now back down to earth
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  #59  
Old 06-23-2014, 03:20 PM
Irishsox1 Irishsox1 is offline
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The Sox don't need more "fire and passion" from the manager. They need better players.
The Sox addressed a lot of player issues dumping Rios and Peavy and picking up Eaton and Abreau. The starting pitching has been substandard but overall the Sox have more talent than Minnesota and Cleveland but those teams have much better managers.

It's not about "fire and passion" it's about making players accountable for their play. Robin lets way too much horrible play slide. It's not about getting kicked out of games or ripping on players in the media, it's about letting your team know that as the manager that you want to win every game and will do whatever it takes to win that game. Robin concedes too many games and his team has picked up on it.

Robin's management philosophy is that it's a long season and not to get too high or too low and to just plug along. That's alright if you are coaching a successful veteran team but this team isn't a veteran team and they have no idea what successful baseball looks like.

What has Robin Ventura done to warrant any sort of support? He's 183-217 as a manager, .458 percent. After 400 games that's worse than Ozzie, Manual, Bevington, Lamont & Torborg. Only Jim Fregosi was worse and he went 193-226 in 2 1/2 season as manager, by the way that's a .460 percent.
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  #60  
Old 06-23-2014, 03:28 PM
WhiteSox5187 WhiteSox5187 is offline
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Originally Posted by Irishsox1 View Post
The Sox addressed a lot of player issues dumping Rios and Peavy and picking up Eaton and Abreau. The starting pitching has been substandard but overall the Sox have more talent than Minnesota and Cleveland but those teams have much better managers.

It's not about "fire and passion" it's about making players accountable for their play. Robin lets way too much horrible play slide. It's not about getting kicked out of games or ripping on players in the media, it's about letting your team know that as the manager that you want to win every game and will do whatever it takes to win that game. Robin concedes too many games and his team has picked up on it.

Robin's management philosophy is that it's a long season and not to get too high or too low and to just plug along. That's alright if you are coaching a successful veteran team but this team isn't a veteran team and they have no idea what successful baseball looks like.

What has Robin Ventura done to warrant any sort of support? He's 183-217 as a manager, .458 percent. After 400 games that's worse than Ozzie, Manual, Bevington, Lamont & Torborg. Only Jim Fregosi was worse and he went 193-226 in 2 1/2 season as manager, by the way that's a .460 percent.
I'm not a fan of Robin, but I don't think it's fair to point to his winning percentage as a strike against him. I think that Robin is a problem but I don't think he is the biggest problem the White Sox have in regards to their recent struggles, but he is a problem.

The way he handles guys, Sale and Abreu immediately come to mind, is unnerving. I don't think the White Sox will ever contend with a young team and Ventura at the helm but I don't think it's not a pressing issue that the White Sox need to address.
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