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  #91  
Old 04-22-2014, 05:35 PM
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doublem23 doublem23 is offline
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Can we all come to the middle ground and agree that while nobody here has either the inside knowledge of Chris Sale's body or medical expertise to pinpoint what exactly is wrong with him, it is still not a great idea to have your undisputed ace pitcher and most valuable on-field asset throw 130 pitches in a relatively pointless game on a cold night in April?
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  #92  
Old 04-22-2014, 05:44 PM
kittle42 kittle42 is offline
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Can we all come to the middle ground and agree that while nobody here has either the inside knowledge of Chris Sale's body or medical expertise to pinpoint what exactly is wrong with him, it is still not a great idea to have your undisputed ace pitcher and most valuable on-field asset throw 130 pitches in a relatively pointless game on a cold night in April?
There is no room for logic and middle ground in our society these days! Attack! Defend! Attack! Defend!
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  #93  
Old 04-22-2014, 05:56 PM
TaylorStSox TaylorStSox is offline
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Can we all come to the middle ground and agree that while nobody here has either the inside knowledge of Chris Sale's body or medical expertise to pinpoint what exactly is wrong with him, it is still not a great idea to have your undisputed ace pitcher and most valuable on-field asset throw 130 pitches in a relatively pointless game on a cold night in April?
No.
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I'm not counting this homerun or his 3 RBI from today's game because of the game situation. I'm not counting his pinch hit solo homerun in a blowout win in Colorado. In my book, Crede has 2 less home runs than his statistics show, 4 less RBI, and one less walk (the one where he pinch hit for Uribe after coming in with a 3-0 count and taking one pitch).
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  #94  
Old 04-22-2014, 06:35 PM
amsteel amsteel is offline
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Originally Posted by doublem23 View Post
Can we all come to the middle ground and agree that while nobody here has either the inside knowledge of Chris Sale's body or medical expertise to pinpoint what exactly is wrong with him, it is still not a great idea to have your undisputed ace pitcher and most valuable on-field asset throw 130 pitches in a relatively pointless game on a cold night in April?
At some point he's gonna have to throw alot of pitches on cold nights in October. If this team is gonna build around him, both the team and Chris himself need to know his limits.

If it were up to me I'd put him in bubble wrap and not let him out until 2015 at the earliest. The more he's out there, whether its April, July, or September this year it becomes more likely that he has a more serious arm injury (Hi, Jake Peavy!) or takes a 110 mph batted ball to the skull (Hi, Brandon McCarthy!) all in the name of the extreme unlikelyhood of them competing for a Wild Card. Put him at risk when it matters (ie: not this year).

I get it, all pitchers get injured the way all cars get scratched, but there's always the likelihood of a catastrophic injury/accident, the more you're out there the more probable it becomes.
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  #95  
Old 04-22-2014, 06:36 PM
Boondock Saint Boondock Saint is offline
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Can we all come to the middle ground and agree that while nobody here has either the inside knowledge of Chris Sale's body or medical expertise to pinpoint what exactly is wrong with him, it is still not a great idea to have your undisputed ace pitcher and most valuable on-field asset throw 130 pitches in a relatively pointless game on a cold night in April?
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There is no room for logic and middle ground in our society these days! Attack! Defend! Attack! Defend!
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No.
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  #96  
Old 04-22-2014, 08:55 PM
dickallen15 dickallen15 is offline
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Originally Posted by doublem23 View Post
Can we all come to the middle ground and agree that while nobody here has either the inside knowledge of Chris Sale's body or medical expertise to pinpoint what exactly is wrong with him, it is still not a great idea to have your undisputed ace pitcher and most valuable on-field asset throw 130 pitches in a relatively pointless game on a cold night in April?
It wasn't cold. It was 60 degrees.
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  #97  
Old 04-22-2014, 09:00 PM
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I don't think modern pitchers are necessarily more fragile, but we do need a lot more of them and thus as a rule there are more guys whose bodies can't necessarily handle the strain, BUT...

I also think we are comparing all the pitchers who get hurt to guys like Nolan Ryan and Cy Young and all the other greats because we simply don't remember all the "meh" pitchers who donked their way out of the league in a season or two or blew out an arm trying to do what the strongest guys do.

It's as much about perception as it is anything else, IMO. We simply don't remember the names of guys who got injured and never pitched after their 4th season from 10-20 years ago let alone all through history so the people we are left comparing today's pitchers to are the strongest and best of the past. You think it's fair to compare Danny Wright to Verlander? That's what we do when we compare average pitchers of today to guys like Nolan Ryan who was a complete freak of nature.
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  #98  
Old 04-22-2014, 11:43 PM
lpneck lpneck is offline
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Sale has the 2nd highest average number of pitches per start in all of MLB right now, behind C.J. Wilson.

Last year he had the 3rd highest average number of pitches per start in all of MLB behind Wilson and Verlander.

That seems to be a questionable strategy for a team that won 63 games last year to use on a pitcher they have invested $32 million dollars to have under their control through 2019, all while having injury concerns about him for at least 3 years now.
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  #99  
Old 04-22-2014, 11:48 PM
TaylorStSox TaylorStSox is offline
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I'm not going to pretend I know more about pitching than Don Cooper.
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  #100  
Old 04-23-2014, 12:36 AM
TDog TDog is offline
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Originally Posted by amsteel View Post
At some point he's gonna have to throw alot of pitches on cold nights in October. If this team is gonna build around him, both the team and Chris himself need to know his limits.
...
I don't know if it's a matter of Sale needing to know his limits as much as the organization needing to know if he's a pitcher who can win big games as well as being able to put up impressive numbers. An April game against the Red Sox might not seem important, but considering how well Lester was pitching and the fact that no team in the AL Central has broken out as dominant yet, it gave Sale a chance to show he was a big-game pitcher, especially after a night where a utility infielder took the loss out of the bullpen. He didn't pitch out of the stretch much. The only hit he gave up was a home run. There were three walks and a hit batsman. If going that far against Lester is going to put him on the disabled list, obviously he is going to have to do better to be the big-game pitcher I've always believed he could be.

Lester outpitched him, not because Lester struck out more or allowed fewer baserunners, but because he pitched deeper into the game until his team gave him a chance to win, pitching against a team that so far this year has been stronger offensively than the one Sale faced. And Lester even survived to start tonight against the Yankees. Granted, the Yankees knocked him out in the fifth, but how he would have pitched tonight if he had come out after five to save his arm for the Yankees or even skipped his start against the White Sox is conjecture.

From what I've read, putting Sale on the disabled list is only a step or two more precautionary than it would have been to take Sale out an inning earlier in his last start. I hope that's the case, and the only reason I've seen to believe it's not would be reflexive pessimism. At least the team isn't telling Sale to be a man and suck it up, as Nardi Contreras apparently told Rocky Biddle. Maybe what comes of this is Sale learning his limitations, learning to put hitters away earlier in the count so he can blossom into a true big-game pitcher.

If he is throwing too many pitches, it isn't because Cooper and Ventura are going with him too long, but because he is using too many pitches to do what a major league team requires of an ace pitcher.
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  #101  
Old 04-23-2014, 08:20 AM
lpneck lpneck is offline
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Originally Posted by TDog View Post
If he is throwing too many pitches, it isn't because Cooper and Ventura are going with him too long, but because he is using too many pitches to do what a major league team requires of an ace pitcher.
Which sounds great if it were true.

Last year Sale averaged 3.75 pitches per at-bat, which ranked him as #54 in MLB (and slightly more effective than Mark Buehrle, who averaged 3.77 and was ranked #51.)

He averaged 15.2 pitches per inning, which was #67 in MLB.

He is being left in games too long.

Look, I'm not saying that players can't be workhorses when needed. I thought it was absurd that the Nationals gave up a legit shot to win a World Series to shut Strasburg down two years ago.

But it's just as absurd to bring the most important future piece of your organization out to pitch the 8th inning when he is at 100+ pitches after 7 while you are one of the 3 worst teams in baseball, and that happened ALL THE TIME last year.
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  #102  
Old 04-23-2014, 11:23 AM
TDog TDog is offline
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Which sounds great if it were true.

Last year Sale averaged 3.75 pitches per at-bat, which ranked him as #54 in MLB (and slightly more effective than Mark Buehrle, who averaged 3.77 and was ranked #51.)

He averaged 15.2 pitches per inning, which was #67 in MLB.

He is being left in games too long.

Look, I'm not saying that players can't be workhorses when needed. I thought it was absurd that the Nationals gave up a legit shot to win a World Series to shut Strasburg down two years ago.

But it's just as absurd to bring the most important future piece of your organization out to pitch the 8th inning when he is at 100+ pitches after 7 while you are one of the 3 worst teams in baseball, and that happened ALL THE TIME last year.

Sale faced 26 batters in his last start and threw 127 pitches. That figures out to 4.88 pitches per hitter faced. It wasn't that he struggled. He was pitching a great game except for the fact that he threw more pitches than he has ever thrown before and he ended up more sore than ever before. The White Sox lost the game because he threw so many pitches that he had to be taken out of the game.

If Sale is going to be a big-game pitcher worth what the White Sox are investing in him, he is going to have to develop into a pitcher who goes deep into games.
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  #103  
Old 04-23-2014, 11:33 AM
smac38 smac38 is offline
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Jon Heyman ‏@JonHeymanCBS 1h
hear chris sale felt well enough to keep pitching. still, it's right call to be safe and dl the ace. #chisox
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  #104  
Old 04-23-2014, 12:13 PM
#1swisher #1swisher is offline
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MRI confirmed the inflammation/strain
Monday's examination, which included extensive testing of the arm by the doctor, Sale was told that it was "99.9 percent sure" that it was nothing to do with the UCL. If it was, he would have been jumping off the table during the tests.




http://mlb.mlb.com/news/article/cws/...&vkey=news_cws
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  #105  
Old 04-23-2014, 12:22 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TDog View Post
Sale faced 26 batters in his last start and threw 127 pitches. That figures out to 4.88 pitches per hitter faced. It wasn't that he struggled. He was pitching a great game except for the fact that he threw more pitches than he has ever thrown before and he ended up more sore than ever before. The White Sox lost the game because he threw so many pitches that he had to be taken out of the game.

If Sale is going to be a big-game pitcher worth what the White Sox are investing in him, he is going to have to develop into a pitcher who goes deep into games.
LOL, he threw the 5th most innings in the AL last season, lead the league in complete games and is by any metric one of the 2-3 best pitchers in the American League, but yeah, he's got to get better.
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