White Sox Interactive Forums
Sox Clubhouse
 Soxogram: 
Congratulations on the Rookie records for HR and RBI in April, Jose!

Welcome
Go Back   White Sox Interactive Forums > Baseball Discussions > Sox Clubhouse
Home Chat Stats Register Blogs FAQ Calendar Mark Forums Read


Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #61  
Old 04-22-2014, 10:05 AM
#1swisher #1swisher is offline
11 NFL 12&13PTC CHAMP
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: 60610
Posts: 16,259
Default

Will Carroll
http://bleacherreport.com/articles/2...on-aces-injury

Rick Hahn indicated that the soreness was in a similar location and width of location to his previous issues, but that he did not believe that there was any further damage to the elbow itself. (There's some debate as to whether the flexor mass is "elbow" or "forearm," but this illustration shows that it's semantics.)



Several sources have told Carroll, there were a couple of teams using diagnostic ultrasound currently, though only a few had it available during games. (Most teams have the unit available but do not have the doctor trained to use and read it available during games.) One of those teams was the White Sox. They could have used this to check the integrity of both the UCL and the flexor mass.
__________________
<font color=#0066cc>http://www.whitesoxinteractive.com/v...pic10971_3.gif</font>
Reply With Quote
  #62  
Old 04-22-2014, 10:09 AM
doublem23's Avatar
doublem23 doublem23 is online now
MMXXIII
 
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: Roscoe Village
Posts: 53,906
Blog Entries: 5
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by SI1020 View Post
I continue to be perplexed as to why so many modern day starting pitchers are so fragile. Robin's criminally incompetent because he had his ace throw 127 pitches in an early season game? If your ace is that vulnerable then he's not really an ace. No matter what happens with Sale I will not criticize our manager for this. Just as I thought Dusty Baker was unfairly maligned for the arm troubles of Prior and Wood. I have no idea why Robin Roberts, Fergie Jenkins, Mickey Lolich and Nolan Ryan were so durable for so long. Roberts and Jenkins were control pitchers with smooth pitching motions and good hard sinkers. Lolich and Ryan both not so smooth. Sale's mechanics, which contribute to his nasty stuff, may be producing extra stress on his arm, shoulder and elbow. I just don't know. I do believe that it should not be too much to ask your main guy to occasionally be able to throw more than 100 or so pitches on 4 days rest. Lastly, I did not intend for this to cause one of those pointless angry youngblood vs old fart baseball arguments. I just think good starters should be able log well over 200 IP and even throw the occasional complete game.
I have two general theories on this...

1) General survivorship. You remember the old workhorses Roberts, Jenkins, etc. for the same reason why when you walk around an old neighborhood in an old city or town, you look at all the beautiful old graystones and think, "they just don't built buildings like this anymore." And yes, you'd be right, compared to a lot of the plaster and drywall crap that gets built now that's no way going to survive a century, but the thing is, you're only seeing the really well built, strong homes from 1900 now because all of the ****ty **** that was built then is all gone. It's not that they ONLY built amazing houses 100 years ago, it's just that only the amazing homes have weathered a century.

Likewise, 50 years from now, people will know the names like Sabathia, Verlander, Maddux, Pettite, Clemens, etc. as the great pitchers of this era who went out and did pitch hundreds of innings every year and they're simply not going to remember guys like Brandon Beachy or Mark Prior or the thousands of other pitchers whose careers were derailed by arm injuries. The standouts get remembered while those that fizzled out just get forgotten. I'm sure there were plenty of pitchers in the 40s and 50s and 60s who succumbed to injury as well, we just don't remember them today because they don't hold the same place in baseball lore.

2) The fundamental nature of the game has changed, mostly due to hitters becoming more powerful. Back in the day, you didn't need to have a devaststing slider or sinker or whatever to get by, the game was much more of a pitch to contact, play defense, and slap the ball around at the plate kind of a game. In 1959, the Indians lead the AL with 167 team HR. Even with HR and offense ticking down a bit since the peak of the Steroid Era insanity, 167 HR was the per team league average in 2013; 8 teams hit more than 167 HR last season. So pitchers can't get away with the kinds of mistakes they did back in the day, which means their pitches have to be sharper and crisper and have a nastier bite which undoubtedly raises the risks of injury.
__________________
2014 Obligatory Attendance & Record Tracker

0-5

LAST GAME: August 4 - Twins 16, Sox 3
NEXT GAME: I don't know, but I'll be sure to warn you when I know
Reply With Quote
  #63  
Old 04-22-2014, 10:12 AM
SI1020 SI1020 is online now
WSI Church Elder
 
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: Deep in the heart of Dixie
Posts: 4,359
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by DSpivack View Post
I think it's pretty difficult and perhaps even meaningless to compare pitchers across time. The eras are just so different and I don't know if the idea that pitchers are more fragile now even holds true.
I guess you'd have to do an exhaustive study to prove or disprove that. What is without a doubt is that over time starting pitchers have logged fewer and fewer innings. It seems to me that so many talented pitchers in the last 20 or so years have flamed out prematurely. Every time a manager has one of his SP go more than 110 pitches in a game some want to fire them on the spot. You're a really good contributor here but I'm going to stick with my post, however lonely an opinion it may be.
Reply With Quote
  #64  
Old 04-22-2014, 10:22 AM
SI1020 SI1020 is online now
WSI Church Elder
 
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: Deep in the heart of Dixie
Posts: 4,359
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by doublem23 View Post

2) The fundamental nature of the game has changed, mostly due to hitters becoming more powerful. Back in the day, you didn't need to have a devaststing slider or sinker or whatever to get by, the game was much more of a pitch to contact, play defense, and slap the ball around at the plate kind of a game. In 1959, the Indians lead the AL with 167 team HR. Even with HR and offense ticking down a bit since the peak of the Steroid Era insanity, 167 HR was the per team league average in 2013; 8 teams hit more than 167 HR last season. So pitchers can't get away with the kinds of mistakes they did back in the day, which means their pitches have to be sharper and crisper and have a nastier bite which undoubtedly raises the risks of injury.
I like that, it's very interesting. Now back in the day pitchers threw hard breaking stuff but it does seem like there are more varieties of such pitches today compared to the 50's, 60's and 70's. This could very well be a contributing factor and being that I have one of those curious minds I'm going to look for this more in the future. You know watching pitcher's motions and noticing who is going on the DL and what does he throw.
Reply With Quote
  #65  
Old 04-22-2014, 10:25 AM
dickallen15 dickallen15 is offline
WSI High Priest
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Posts: 5,903
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by SI1020 View Post
I guess you'd have to do an exhaustive study to prove or disprove that. What is without a doubt is that over time starting pitchers have logged fewer and fewer innings. It seems to me that so many talented pitchers in the last 20 or so years have flamed out prematurely. Every time a manager has one of his SP go more than 110 pitches in a game some want to fire them on the spot. You're a really good contributor here but I'm going to stick with my post, however lonely an opinion it may be.
"Back in the day" they didn't even post pitch counts on scoreboards, and they didn't make boxscores.

I agree, 110 seems to be where freak outs begin. Somewhere along the line it appears someone came up with the nice round number of 100 pitches as being the "safe" amount before something went south. I don't know who it was, but it is funny that it is exactly 100. People have been sold a bill of goods. If guys are trained properly, they can throw more pitches. Nolan Ryan supposedly threw over 200 many times and was hitting 140 into his 40's. Even went over 160 in his 40s.

Tanaka was throwing a lot of pitches and a lot of people were talking about "abuse". He seems to be doing fine. The studs pitch. If this injury turns into something major, it was bound to happen next week or next month, or next year, sometime......... even if Sale wasn't allowed to throw more than 100 pitches.
Reply With Quote
  #66  
Old 04-22-2014, 10:29 AM
doublem23's Avatar
doublem23 doublem23 is online now
MMXXIII
 
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: Roscoe Village
Posts: 53,906
Blog Entries: 5
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by SI1020 View Post
I like that, it's very interesting. Now back in the day pitchers threw hard breaking stuff but it does seem like there are more varieties of such pitches today compared to the 50's, 60's and 70's. This could very well be a contributing factor and being that I have one of those curious minds I'm going to look for this more in the future. You know watching pitcher's motions and noticing who is going on the DL and what does he throw.
I guess I should include the caveat that I'm born in the 80s so I'm kind of talking out of my ass in this arena, this is based solely on my observation of old baseball footage as seen in TV shows, documentaries, found online, etc. But it seems like back in the day, pitchers generally had a much more relaxed and natural delivery. You didn't have guys snapping their elbows like Kerry Wood or whatever. There wasn't a fascination with overpowering hitters, I get the idea that the general feeling was that pitchers weren't terrified of the HR so they were more willing to let guys slap the ball and let their defense work behind them, especially once you got away from the meat of the order.
Reply With Quote
  #67  
Old 04-22-2014, 10:42 AM
Moses_Scurry Moses_Scurry is offline
WSI's 2010 Preseason Prediction Contest Winner
 
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: Carmel, IN
Posts: 2,960
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by doublem23 View Post
I have two general theories on this...

1) General survivorship. You remember the old workhorses Roberts, Jenkins, etc. for the same reason why when you walk around an old neighborhood in an old city or town, you look at all the beautiful old graystones and think, "they just don't built buildings like this anymore." And yes, you'd be right, compared to a lot of the plaster and drywall crap that gets built now that's no way going to survive a century, but the thing is, you're only seeing the really well built, strong homes from 1900 now because all of the ****ty **** that was built then is all gone. It's not that they ONLY built amazing houses 100 years ago, it's just that only the amazing homes have weathered a century.

Likewise, 50 years from now, people will know the names like Sabathia, Verlander, Maddux, Pettite, Clemens, etc. as the great pitchers of this era who went out and did pitch hundreds of innings every year and they're simply not going to remember guys like Brandon Beachy or Mark Prior or the thousands of other pitchers whose careers were derailed by arm injuries. The standouts get remembered while those that fizzled out just get forgotten. I'm sure there were plenty of pitchers in the 40s and 50s and 60s who succumbed to injury as well, we just don't remember them today because they don't hold the same place in baseball lore.

2) The fundamental nature of the game has changed, mostly due to hitters becoming more powerful. Back in the day, you didn't need to have a devaststing slider or sinker or whatever to get by, the game was much more of a pitch to contact, play defense, and slap the ball around at the plate kind of a game. In 1959, the Indians lead the AL with 167 team HR. Even with HR and offense ticking down a bit since the peak of the Steroid Era insanity, 167 HR was the per team league average in 2013; 8 teams hit more than 167 HR last season. So pitchers can't get away with the kinds of mistakes they did back in the day, which means their pitches have to be sharper and crisper and have a nastier bite which undoubtedly raises the risks of injury.
I've also read, possibly even on this board, that in the old days pitchers were conditioned to be able to go more innings/pitches from the beginning of their careers, possibly even in high school. Now, pitchers are limited every step of the way, so they can't build up the ability to throw more pitches. I also have to think that the glorification of the strike-out has something to do with it. High K pitchers need to throw a lot more stressing pitches just to get through 6 innings than a Mark Buehrle.
__________________
What is Mind? -- Doesn't Matter!
What is Matter? -- Never Mind!
-Homer Simpson
Reply With Quote
  #68  
Old 04-22-2014, 10:46 AM
dickallen15 dickallen15 is offline
WSI High Priest
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Posts: 5,903
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Moses_Scurry View Post
I've also read, possibly even on this board, that in the old days pitchers were conditioned to be able to go more innings/pitches from the beginning of their careers, possibly even in high school. Now, pitchers are limited every step of the way, so they can't build up the ability to throw more pitches. I also have to think that the glorification of the strike-out has something to do with it. High K pitchers need to throw a lot more stressing pitches just to get through 6 innings than a Mark Buehrle.
But they aren't limited every step of the way. They throw more pitches per outing in college and throw a ton in HS. Once they sign, they are cut back. What makes it even weirder, is back 20 years ago and further, if a pitcher hurt his arm and it required surgery, it was far more likely he was done, or nowhere near the same post-surgery as it is now. It's a CYA in play now for the babying of pitchers, and it seems even more wind up hurt.
Reply With Quote
  #69  
Old 04-22-2014, 11:10 AM
SBSoxFan SBSoxFan is offline
WSI Church Elder
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: South Bend, IN
Posts: 2,952
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by doublem23 View Post
The only thing that terrifies me right now is that a flexor strain is the exact same original diagnosis that Gavin Floyd was given when he went on the DL last year before it was revealed he tore the muscle and UCL.

http://www.thecatbirdseatblog.com/bl...-disabled-list

Just keeping my fingers crossed right now.
This is what makes me nervous as well - not regarding Floyd necessarily, but in general preliminary reports seem to be more innocuous. It isn't until later, when PT isn't working, that they realize something was "missed" on the original MRI. I mean, how come we never hear "Well, the preliminary report was that his arm fell off, but, after further testing, we realized it was a splinter."

I do recall that early in spring training 2005, there was concern Buehrle had a stress fracture in his foot, but it turned out only to be a stress reaction. And things went well that year. So, let's hope for a speedy recovery.

From a baseball perspective, it's a shame we don't get to watch Verlander/Sale tonight.
Reply With Quote
  #70  
Old 04-22-2014, 11:18 AM
DSpivack DSpivack is offline
WSI Guru
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: Evanston
Posts: 28,714
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by SI1020 View Post
I guess you'd have to do an exhaustive study to prove or disprove that. What is without a doubt is that over time starting pitchers have logged fewer and fewer innings. It seems to me that so many talented pitchers in the last 20 or so years have flamed out prematurely. Every time a manager has one of his SP go more than 110 pitches in a game some want to fire them on the spot. You're a really good contributor here but I'm going to stick with my post, however lonely an opinion it may be.
Yeah, I don't know if I've seen any studies along those lines, though I recall an article (FanGraphs?) a couple years ago looking at career length for pitchers.
__________________
Attendance records:
09 : 3-2.
10 : 2-3.
11: 0-1.
12: 2-1.
14: 1-2.
Reply With Quote
  #71  
Old 04-22-2014, 11:42 AM
sullythered sullythered is offline
WSI Church Elder
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Oak Lawn, IL
Posts: 4,334
Default

This has happened twice before with Sale, and he came back both times and dominated immediately. Until further notice, there's nothing to be worried about. He has never missed significant time.
__________________
And on the 8th day, God created churros.
Reply With Quote
  #72  
Old 04-22-2014, 11:47 AM
thomas35forever thomas35forever is offline
WSI Prelate
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Lombard
Posts: 23,491
Default

As long as we see him once the calendar flips to May, I won't be worried. He hasn't let DL trips stunt his growth as a pitcher before, so why start now?
__________________
Bullpen wanted
Good arms now being accepted at 333 W. 35th Street, Chicago
Reply With Quote
  #73  
Old 04-22-2014, 11:58 AM
The Immigrant The Immigrant is offline
WSI Church Elder
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Old Irving Park
Posts: 4,257
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by thomas35forever View Post
He hasn't let DL trips stunt his growth as a pitcher before, so why start now?
This is the first DL trip in Chris Sale's career.
Reply With Quote
  #74  
Old 04-22-2014, 11:59 AM
amsteel amsteel is online now
WSI Church Elder
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Boston, MA
Posts: 4,106
Default

I'm guessing the truth is somewhere between 'slight discomfort and erring far on the side of caution' to 'we already know he's gonna be out 8-10 months but aren't telling anyone since we don't want people writing off the season already'
__________________
Reply With Quote
  #75  
Old 04-22-2014, 12:13 PM
anewman35 anewman35 is offline
WSI Church Elder
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Buffalo Grove, IL
Posts: 2,633
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by #1swisher View Post
But I don't understand! Everybody knows it's 100% because Robin pitched him 127 pitches, and this so-called "expert" says there is no evidence of that! How can the collective wisdom of this thread be wrong?
Reply With Quote
Reply


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



Forum Jump




All times are GMT -5. The time now is 03:18 PM.




Design by: Michelle

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Site-specific editorial/photos Copyright ©2001 - 2008 White Sox Interactive. All rights reserved.