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  #16  
Old 04-02-2014, 10:44 AM
BigKlu59 BigKlu59 is offline
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Originally Posted by TDog View Post
When I was living in Munster, 1967-1979, Munster was solidly Cubs country. Being a White Sox fan put me in a very small minority. Being known as a White Sox fan at Munster High made you a social outcast, so there were probably a few White Sox fans in the closet. That was even true in 1977, when there was more excitement for the Cubs' run that year than the White Sox run that is more fondly remembered among the respective fan bases. And it was true too for the area of Hammond where the family auto parts store was located. All of my grandfather's employees were Cubs fans. During summer afternoons, Cubs games would be playing in the accounting area. I wondered if it was at least in part a class thing because Munster, at the time at least, was more affluent than the rest of Lake County. Still the Times always treated the Cubs as the No. 1 baseball team in its circulation area. When I went down to Bloomington for school, I was in Reds country. Of course, those were the days of the Big Red Machine.

Everywhere else I've lived since, Arizona, Alaska and California, with the exception of suburban Milwaukee, people have to be reminded that the Cubs are not the only major league baseball team.

I was once in Dublin, Ireland, talking to a man from Liverpool, England about sports. Although he had never been to America, he knew that Wrigley Field was to baseball what St. Andrews in Scotland is to golf.
I think the shift you saw cuBs vs Pale Hose can be seen today with the reversal of fortunes. You are always gonna have your die hards and those that jump with the flavor of the day. The Sox were on the wane and the Cubbies were touting their BBHOF Line up that looked good on paper, were bouncing balls onto Waveland and Sheffield, yet couldnt bring home the bacon if the pig was handed to them..

GN cable, Harry pumping personality in to a moribound carcass didnt help the Sox as well...

Had my Black Sox moments as well... Yes Virginia, there is a Chicago Baseball team on the South Side of town as well. Too bad there was no such thing as the wild card back in the Yankee hey day.. Atleast the Sox then would have had more countrywide media attention and somewhat more of a household name.

Fair playing media field established.. Sox run with it and the Cubbies can have all the fans in Uttumwa fer sure...

BK59
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  #17  
Old 04-02-2014, 11:28 AM
MISoxfan MISoxfan is offline
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I spent about 5 years bouncing between Oxnard/Ventura when I was stationed there and there were a TON of Sox hats, but they were only worn to represent South Oxnard. Sox hats were banned from many establishments because of this.

Also southwest Michigan has to be close to being Sox territory, it's pretty close to 50/50.
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  #18  
Old 04-02-2014, 01:43 PM
BigKlu59 BigKlu59 is offline
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I spent about 5 years bouncing between Oxnard/Ventura when I was stationed there and there were a TON of Sox hats, but they were only worn to represent South Oxnard. Sox hats were banned from many establishments because of this.

Also southwest Michigan has to be close to being Sox territory, it's pretty close to 50/50.
Right about SW MI.... Met alot of Sox fans at the Dunes over the years. I seem to recall once you get to White Pidgeon on the Hoosier Toll Road, thats where the Mo City Kitties fathful start to show their stripes.. I remember as a kid wearing my Sox cap only to be razzed at the Service Plaza.. Didnt help the 68 Tigers woke up since the days of Hank Greenburg.

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  #19  
Old 04-02-2014, 02:46 PM
LITTLE NELL LITTLE NELL is offline
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We have talked about this many times, the reason the Cubs are more popular than the Sox start in the mid 60s when the Sox were the more popular team but they left WGN to go to UHF TV. That was great, the Sox would televise all their games on WFLD-32 but no one had UHF TVs at the time. No telling how many fans we lost on that fiasco. The turmoil of the late 60s came next as fans were afraid to visit Comiskey. The Cubs are now on WGN full time and after years of sub .500 ball have a contender while the Sox after 17 years of winning seasons hit the skids with 68-69 and 70 being some of their worst years ever. The Sox make a comeback in the early 70s with Harry in the booth and Dick Allen on the field. The rest of the 70s there was basically a tie in popularity. JR comes on the scene in 81 and the Sox by 1983 are #1 again but Harry has gone to the Northside and the Cubs win the division in 1984. The Sox meanwhile bring in Sportsvision and you need to pay to watch the Sox while the Cubs are on WGN for free, what a fiasco that was. The Trib buys the Cubs and it has not been the same since, they market Wrigley Field with Harry leading the way and WGN is a super station and it's no contest . The threat of moving to Florida came next which rubbed most Sox fans the wrong way. The new ballpark helped the Sox for a few years but that didn't last long as fans hated the upper deck. We then lived through the White Flag trade and fans were irate. What hurts me most is they outdrew us in 2005 while we have the best team and win the WS and in 2006 when teams draw gangbusters after a title. They even outdrew us in 2012 while we were in first place until late September and they were in last the whole season.
Looking back if the Sox were only able to build on years like 83, 93, 2000 and 2005 things might have been better but they never were able to make the post-season 2 years in a row, the strike of 1994 really hurt the franchise, seems like JR got more blame than anyone else. After all these blunders by management in almost the last 50 years it's a wonder there are any Sox fans anywhere.
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  #20  
Old 04-02-2014, 05:36 PM
rpmorri rpmorri is offline
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Originally Posted by OldRomanPizza View Post
I'd also be interested to see this study done at the neighborhood level. In Logan Square (Around Milwaukee/Fullerton, at least) I see more Tigers hats than Cubs/Sox combined.
Logan is far more Cubs than Sox. It's not close.
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  #21  
Old 04-02-2014, 05:55 PM
MISoxfan MISoxfan is offline
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Originally Posted by BigKlu59 View Post
Right about SW MI.... Met alot of Sox fans at the Dunes over the years. I seem to recall once you get to White Pidgeon on the Hoosier Toll Road, thats where the Mo City Kitties fathful start to show their stripes.. I remember as a kid wearing my Sox cap only to be razzed at the Service Plaza.. Didnt help the 68 Tigers woke up since the days of Hank Greenburg.

BK59
Sounds about right. I think you still have Chicago fans in Niles, and up north you're in Tiger country by time you hit Kalamazoo.
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  #22  
Old 04-02-2014, 06:36 PM
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Sounds about right. I think you still have Chicago fans in Niles, and up north you're in Tiger country by time you hit Kalamazoo.
The towns on Lake coast in SW lower MI can pick up Chicago TV and radio. Half hour east of the coast it becomes strictly Tigers territory.
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  #23  
Old 04-02-2014, 07:32 PM
TDog TDog is offline
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Originally Posted by LITTLE NELL View Post
We have talked about this many times, the reason the Cubs are more popular than the Sox start in the mid 60s when the Sox were the more popular team but they left WGN to go to UHF TV. That was great, the Sox would televise all their games on WFLD-32 but no one had UHF TVs at the time. No telling how many fans we lost on that fiasco. The turmoil of the late 60s came next as fans were afraid to visit Comiskey. The Cubs are now on WGN full time and after years of sub .500 ball have a contender while the Sox after 17 years of winning seasons hit the skids with 68-69 and 70 being some of their worst years ever. The Sox make a comeback in the early 70s with Harry in the booth and Dick Allen on the field. The rest of the 70s there was basically a tie in popularity. JR comes on the scene in 81 and the Sox by 1983 are #1 again but Harry has gone to the Northside and the Cubs win the division in 1984. The Sox meanwhile bring in Sportsvision and you need to pay to watch the Sox while the Cubs are on WGN for free, what a fiasco that was. The Trib buys the Cubs and it has not been the same since, they market Wrigley Field with Harry leading the way and WGN is a super station and it's no contest . The threat of moving to Florida came next which rubbed most Sox fans the wrong way. The new ballpark helped the Sox for a few years but that didn't last long as fans hated the upper deck. We then lived through the White Flag trade and fans were irate. What hurts me most is they outdrew us in 2005 while we have the best team and win the WS and in 2006 when teams draw gangbusters after a title. They even outdrew us in 2012 while we were in first place until late September and they were in last the whole season.
Looking back if the Sox were only able to build on years like 83, 93, 2000 and 2005 things might have been better but they never were able to make the post-season 2 years in a row, the strike of 1994 really hurt the franchise, seems like JR got more blame than anyone else. After all these blunders by management in almost the last 50 years it's a wonder there are any Sox fans anywhere.
This is the analysis I've been hearing for years, some of it since 1982. I think it's oversimplified, although it sounds great in theory. I recall that Munster, where I grew up, was heavily Cubs country before the Sox moved to UHF. And Muster was heavily Cubs country and anti-Harry Caray until he moved to the Cubs. You could come out of the closet in 1972, but it didn't last much beyond that.

The White Sox didn't draw 2 million until after Harry Caray went to the Cubs. They didn't draw 2 million in 1977. And the White Sox drew 2 million before the Cubs did. I don't think Harry Carary had much of an effect on team allegiances. He was loud and brash and people could be more excited about being Sox fans because of him at the beginning as the team started playing better, but Cubs households didn't become White Sox households because of Harry Caray. Kids coming home from school to see the Cubs in the afternoon would have still seen the Cubs in the afternoon if WGN was only doing afternoon home games of the two teams, the way they pretty much were doing by 1967. I don't know of any Cubs fan in the early 1970s, when there weren't many Sox fans in Munster, whose families used to be White Sox fans or were on the fence about which team to support.
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  #24  
Old 04-02-2014, 07:33 PM
IronFisk IronFisk is offline
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As a life-long Lake Co. IN resident, it was nice to see this. Even so "The Region" is pretty split - so much so that I didn't even bother to catch any 2005 ALCS or World Series games out here due to the numerous cub d-baggers. I opted for Bridgeport...and would do it again in a heartbeat
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  #25  
Old 04-02-2014, 07:49 PM
LITTLE NELL LITTLE NELL is offline
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Originally Posted by TDog View Post
This is the analysis I've been hearing for years, some of it since 1982. I think it's oversimplified, although it sounds great in theory. I recall that Munster, where I grew up, was heavily Cubs country before the Sox moved to UHF. And Muster was heavily Cubs country and anti-Harry Caray until he moved to the Cubs. You could come out of the closet in 1972, but it didn't last much beyond that.

The White Sox didn't draw 2 million until after Harry Caray went to the Cubs. They didn't draw 2 million in 1977. And the White Sox drew 2 million before the Cubs did. I don't think Harry Carary had much of an effect on team allegiances. He was loud and brash and people could be more excited about being Sox fans because of him at the beginning as the team started playing better, but Cubs households didn't become White Sox households because of Harry Caray. Kids coming home from school to see the Cubs in the afternoon would have still seen the Cubs in the afternoon if WGN was only doing afternoon home games of the two teams, the way they pretty much were doing by 1967. I don't know of any Cubs fan in the early 1970s, when there weren't many Sox fans in Munster, whose families used to be White Sox fans or were on the fence about which team to support.
Harry is only one part of the equation, I have been a Sox fan since the early 50s and I've seen the Sox outdrawing the Cubs 2 to 1 in the 50s and 60, not every year but quite a few years. I'm pretty sure that the turn-around with the Cubs now more popular than the Sox has to do with all the things I mentioned but if I had to pick the number one reason it would the Sox leaving WGN after the 1967 season. You make a good point about kids watching the Cubs after school. I always watched the Cubs after school or even in my working years as I worked evenings but never pulled for them, I can still hear Brickhouse muttering "Oh brother".

Last edited by LITTLE NELL; 04-02-2014 at 08:02 PM.
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  #26  
Old 04-02-2014, 08:30 PM
Soxman219 Soxman219 is offline
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I guess the Sox are more popular with the youth.
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  #27  
Old 04-02-2014, 08:43 PM
TDog TDog is offline
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Originally Posted by LITTLE NELL View Post
Harry is only one part of the equation, I have been a Sox fan since the early 50s and I've seen the Sox outdrawing the Cubs 2 to 1 in the 50s and 60, not every year but quite a few years. I'm pretty sure that the turn-around with the Cubs now more popular than the Sox has to do with all the things I mentioned but if I had to pick the number one reason it would the Sox leaving WGN after the 1967 season. You make a good point about kids watching the Cubs after school. I always watched the Cubs after school or even in my working years as I worked evenings but never pulled for them, I can still hear Brickhouse muttering "Oh brother".
I think the WGN impact is exaggerated by analysts, who have been talking about it for years. The Cubs and White Sox were almost even in attendance by 1967 when the Sox were still on WGN. The Sox were in first place for a bunch of the summer, something like May 25 to August 12, and they only finished 3 games out after losing their last five. If the Sox were considered to have the inside track to the World Series at the end of September, they were on WGN, and in many ways, the Cubs, who were in first place in in late July before falling way out of it had become the more popular team, outdrawing the Sox in September despite the pennant race. The Sox losing their first 10 games of 1968 had more to do with attendance that year than UHF did.

The 1972 season did for the White Sox what the 1967 season did for the Cubs, but Dick Allen breaking his arm in 1973 ensured the fans of bad teams until the 1980s and a back seat to the Cubs until the Reisdorf regime took over.
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  #28  
Old 04-03-2014, 08:00 AM
Golden Sox Golden Sox is offline
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Building the Cell at its present location sure didn't help matters. Years ago the White Sox fan base was on the Southside of Chicago. That's not the case anymore. I would make a guess that 80% of there attendance comes from somewhere else than the Southside of Chicago. You build a stadium where your fan base is. The Cell isn't near there fan base and potential fan base. It will be interesting to see what the White Sox do when the lease at the Cell is up in 2029.
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  #29  
Old 04-03-2014, 12:51 PM
winstonage winstonage is offline
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Building the Cell at its present location sure didn't help matters. Years ago the White Sox fan base was on the Southside of Chicago. That's not the case anymore. I would make a guess that 80% of there attendance comes from somewhere else than the Southside of Chicago. You build a stadium where your fan base is. The Cell isn't near there fan base and potential fan base. It will be interesting to see what the White Sox do when the lease at the Cell is up in 2029.
Agreed. I live and work in the northern suburbs. It is impossible to get to the Cell
during the week, so, I am limited to weekends. If they had built in Addison which was talked about, even that would have been easier. They should have built in the Rossevelt Road and Canal St. area. With the development of the south loop, would have created an area as desirable as Wrigleyville. Tough to get to as well, but would have made the Cell a tourist attraction, which certainly would have bumped attendance.
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  #30  
Old 04-03-2014, 01:01 PM
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I think the obvious reason is 2005 and the teens/20s. Most kids associate more with the white sox due to winning and being kid friendly. I think the younger demographic is driving the Facebook map here.
That's a great point. The Sox have been the more kid friendly experience for a long time. That well could be paying dividends. Add in the championship and continued high-payroll aggressive front office trying to build another championship team (even if not successful, can't say they haven't been trying) and younger generation folks maybe tuning more and more into the Sox.

Urinal troughs only get you so far with today's youth market.
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