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  #16  
Old 12-20-2013, 08:03 AM
LoveYourSuit LoveYourSuit is offline
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Originally Posted by TaylorStSox View Post
Yesterday Hahn said that KW wanted to rebuild for the last few years. Let's not pretend that KW doesn't have a huge hand in the make up of this team.

I never understood the KW hate.
Didn't he go scout Abreu personally and convince JR to fly the check?

Folks just can't give this guy credit.
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  #17  
Old 12-20-2013, 08:09 AM
LoveYourSuit LoveYourSuit is offline
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Originally Posted by slavko View Post
Wanting to rebuild in 2011 and signing Dunn seem to be inconsistent with each other. Can't have it both ways, men. If he did it in 2011, he'd still have his job, but he didn't, so he paid the price. So did we, for that matter.
That's nonesense.

He signed Dunn at his peak. He was a long term piece.

No one can come here and say that it was bad signing at the time.

No one would have predicted the guy would forget to hit and get on base the minute he put on that Sox jersey.
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  #18  
Old 12-20-2013, 08:58 AM
SephClone89 SephClone89 is offline
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Originally Posted by LoveYourSuit View Post
That's nonesense.

He signed Dunn at his peak. He was a long term piece.

No one can come here and say that it was bad signing at the time.

No one would have predicted the guy would forget to hit and get on base the minute he put on that Sox jersey.
Ask TDog. He won't let you forget.
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  #19  
Old 12-20-2013, 09:06 AM
Bobby Thigpen Bobby Thigpen is offline
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Originally Posted by TaylorStSox View Post
Yesterday Hahn said that KW wanted to rebuild for the last few years. Let's not pretend that KW doesn't have a huge hand in the make up of this team.

I never understood the KW hate.
Because people are dumb and without someone to whine about they'd have to actually realize that maybe they're not so perfect themselves.

The guy's the best, maybe second best to Krause, Chicago GM of my 37 years on the planet.
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  #20  
Old 12-20-2013, 09:42 AM
TomBradley72 TomBradley72 is offline
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Originally Posted by LoveYourSuit View Post
That's nonesense.

He signed Dunn at his peak. He was a long term piece.

No one can come here and say that it was bad signing at the time.

No one would have predicted the guy would forget to hit and get on base the minute he put on that Sox jersey.
He was NOT at his peak- Adam Dunn hit .199 post-All Star break the year before the Sox signed him- and had already been quoted as concerned about being in the DH role. Many reports had the Sox bidding against themselves on this signing.

In some ways- similar to the Billy Koch acquisition- Koch sucked post All Star break the year before the Sox traded for him.

No one could have guessed Dunn would be as horrible as he has been- but there were plenty of warning signs-
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  #21  
Old 12-20-2013, 10:59 AM
Hitmen77 Hitmen77 is offline
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Originally Posted by TaylorStSox View Post
Yesterday Hahn said that KW wanted to rebuild for the last few years. Let's not pretend that KW doesn't have a huge hand in the make up of this team.

I never understood the KW hate.
I agree with what you're saying. I think KW did a fantastic job in putting together a pennant contending team for several years in the mid-2000s. He pulled off some great trades for this team.

But, just because a team isn't in "rebuild" mode doesn't mean they have no choice but to let the farm system go to pot. IMO, a lot of the problems the Sox are now trying to dig themselves out of today is because of their failure to develop much in the way of homegrown talent. This goes back to the early 2000s to the beginning of KW's tenure as GM and it finally caught up with the team in the last few years. This is my biggest complaint of the KW era.

That being said, I don't believe this failure to develop talent is necessarily KW's fault. He works for a boss who apparently didn't believe in putting money into drafting, scouting, etc.
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  #22  
Old 12-20-2013, 11:44 AM
Tragg Tragg is offline
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Originally Posted by TaylorStSox View Post
Cover for what? Ken Williams was the best GM of your life. He doesn't need to apologize for a damn thing.
Cover for an organization that was not in good shape personnel-wise when KW stepped down, so he bided his time before making changes. KW made a lot of bad moves his last few years here. Guillen managed this team to a WS - how's his reputation now? There's a change in philosophy afoot, whether you like it or not. KW has always been a good evaluator of young talent, and he's still involved heavily in that (and we can thank him for A Garcia), which is good.
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  #23  
Old 12-20-2013, 11:46 AM
TaylorStSox TaylorStSox is offline
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Cover for an organization that was not in good shape personnel-wise when he stepped down. There's a change in philosophy afoot, whether you like it or not.
A change in philosophy? What does that even mean? Of course there's a change. We're rebuilding for the first time in 14 years.
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  #24  
Old 12-20-2013, 12:49 PM
Tragg Tragg is offline
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Originally Posted by TaylorStSox View Post
A change in philosophy? What does that even mean? Of course there's a change. We're rebuilding for the first time in 14 years.
Actually, we're retooling, not rebuilding, and we're doing it in a different manner than we have in the last 6 or 7 years and we're going to be looking for a different type of player at various positions than we have.
And retooling is a continuation of the same overall philosophy we have had...the micro aspects are different.
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  #25  
Old 12-20-2013, 01:50 PM
TaylorStSox TaylorStSox is offline
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Originally Posted by Tragg View Post
Actually, we're retooling, not rebuilding, and we're doing it in a different manner than we have in the last 6 or 7 years and we're going to be looking for a different type of player at various positions than we have.
And retooling is a continuation of the same overall philosophy we have had...the micro aspects are different.
Different type of player? That's really not accurate. Aside from Eaton (who is very similar to Erstad), Hahn has acquired guys that have a lot of power, K a lot and don't walk a lot. He's acquiring younger players, but that's an obvious call. I love what he's doing, but there isn't a "philosophy" change and he's not targeting "a different type of player."

I almost forgot about the best Cuban available. Yeah, totally different than KW.
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  #26  
Old 12-20-2013, 01:52 PM
SI1020 SI1020 is offline
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KW with 50 cents was a lot better GM than he was when he had the dollar. The Sox have been fortunate, at least in my lifetime to have had some very creative, hardworking GMs. Frank Lane, Ed Short (at least on the front end of his tenure) Roland Hemond and KW stand out the most for me. Frank Lane got Nellie Fox, Billy Pierce, Minnie Minoso and Sherm Lollar for next to nothing. It's hard to top that. When the Sox slid 3 years in a row after winning a pennant Ed Short revitalized the team with a block buster trade that brought Pete Ward, Hoyt Wilhelm and Ron Hansen from Baltimore. Dave Nicholson too but the other 3 made up for him. Roland Hemond, like Lane breathed new life into an organization that was near comatose. KW of course did what none of the aforementioned was able to do. Of course I respect the man, but like Ed Short he made some questionable moves the last few years. It's too early to tell, but so far I think Hahn will do well and add his name to the list of noteworthy Sox GMs who did so much to keep the Sox competitive with limited resources.

Edit: Of course I should mention Larry Himes but I was thinking more of the trading aspect of the GM position, so I brain cramped.
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  #27  
Old 12-20-2013, 01:59 PM
Tragg Tragg is offline
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Originally Posted by TaylorStSox View Post
Different type of player? That's really not accurate. Aside from Eaton (who is very similar to Erstad), Hahn has acquired guys that have a lot of power, K a lot and don't walk a lot. He's acquiring younger players, but that's an obvious call. I love what he's doing, but there isn't a "philosophy" change and he's not targeting "a different type of player."
Eaton is the exact opposite of Erstad. Erstad was a swing at everything player. Eaton is an extreme pitch-taker. Yes we traded for Garcia, but he is a real impact bat - or they think he will be (and, again, we can thank KW for that).
Also, as per his comments yesterday with the Bellisario signing, he's looking for pitchers that fit the ballpark profile.
We have several new players and haven't traded a single real prospect yet.
I see a lot of changes.
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  #28  
Old 12-20-2013, 02:02 PM
hawkjt hawkjt is offline
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Lets see how this works out before crowning anyone with GM kudos.

I like what Hahn has done, but assuming that KW is not involved with every move is wrong.

I also think it is a bit easier to go from the bottom to the middle than going from slightly above .500 to winning divisions.

The Sox were always very competitive under KW. They always drafted late because of that....so the farm suffered.

Some of the drafts did suck, tho, so there is blame to be assigned.

Eaton reminds me of the Pods move, before 2005. No one was impressed, losing CLee for Pods, but Pods drove that early success that year where the Sox scored first in every game for two months, and ran off 99 wins.

GM is more art than science, and putting a Pods and AJ on that WS team was no sure thing...but it worked.
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  #29  
Old 12-20-2013, 02:14 PM
TaylorStSox TaylorStSox is offline
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Originally Posted by Tragg View Post
Eaton is the exact opposite of Erstad. Erstad was a swing at everything player. Eaton is an extreme pitch-taker. Yes we traded for Garcia, but he is a real impact bat - or they think he will be (and, again, we can thank KW for that).
Also, as per his comments yesterday with the Bellisario signing, he's looking for pitchers that fit the ballpark profile.
We have several new players and haven't traded a single real prospect yet.
I see a lot of changes.
Erstad swung at everything? Www.google.com
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  #30  
Old 12-20-2013, 03:43 PM
eriqjaffe eriqjaffe is offline
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Originally Posted by TaylorStSox View Post
Erstad swung at everything? Www.google.com
He has three 100+ strikeout seasons in his career and has an overall K/BB ratio of almost exactly 2:1. He's not Adam Dunn (or even Alejandro De Aza), but he certainly swung and missed at a fair amount. Eaton's career ML ratio is about the same, but his minor league ratio is about 1.2/1.
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