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  #31  
Old 11-29-2013, 02:20 AM
TDog TDog is offline
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Originally Posted by HomeFish View Post
I think Glavine and Maddux get in, but Frank waits a year or two. At the end of the day, playing for the White Sox is a disadvantage.
Only White Sox fans believe that.
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  #32  
Old 11-29-2013, 07:36 AM
chicagowhitesox1 chicagowhitesox1 is offline
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Whispers from who? Some numbnut calling into The Score at 3 AM on a Tuesday?

Regardless, it's going to be an interesting year. The writers are so full of themselves and their hallowed 'traditions' that it's hardly worth debating, IMHO. It's almost like the argument of what exactly MVP means.
Nobody in particular but cmon your nuts if you think guys like Maddux, Rivera or even Suzuki never used. If somehow I could get an honest answer I would bet my life that one of these guys used. Of course we will never know though.
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  #33  
Old 11-29-2013, 12:41 PM
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Nobody in particular but cmon your nuts if you think guys like Maddux, Rivera or even Suzuki never used. If somehow I could get an honest answer I would bet my life that one of these guys used. Of course we will never know though.
Only the most cynical would believe someone is acting illegally and unethically to artificially increase muscle mass to gain an edge and consider those who don't so believe to be nuts when the only evidence to illegal and unethical behavior is success.
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  #34  
Old 11-30-2013, 10:17 AM
chicagowhitesox1 chicagowhitesox1 is offline
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Originally Posted by TDog View Post
Only the most cynical would believe someone is acting illegally and unethically to artificially increase muscle mass to gain an edge and consider those who don't so believe to be nuts when the only evidence to illegal and unethical behavior is success.
Only the most naive would believe someone isn't acting illegally to increase muscle mass to gain an edge to make more money. The Nolan Ryans, Cal Ripkens and Rickey Hendersons are names that most would never associate with roids but I sure do. I think every single player from the steroid era used some type of steroids. I don't hold it against them because alot of these guys probably took stuff you could buy at GNC.
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  #35  
Old 11-30-2013, 11:06 AM
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Only the most naive would believe someone isn't acting illegally to increase muscle mass to gain an edge to make more money. The Nolan Ryans, Cal Ripkens and Rickey Hendersons are names that most would never associate with roids but I sure do. I think every single player from the steroid era used some type of steroids. I don't hold it against them because alot of these guys probably took stuff you could buy at GNC.
Success is not evidence of cheating.

Smugly calling people na´ve because they don't see success as evidence as cheating is insulting, not just to the men who work hard to get the most out of their talents, but to those of us who appreciate what they can do. It demeans the game and the accomplishments of its best players.

Not believing that Nolan Ryan, Greg Maddux and even Frank Thomas used steroids isn't na´ve, but associating them with steroids, absent any evidence other than their success, is certainly cynical.
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  #36  
Old 11-30-2013, 12:05 PM
chicagowhitesox1 chicagowhitesox1 is offline
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Originally Posted by TDog View Post
Success is not evidence of cheating.

Smugly calling people na´ve because they don't see success as evidence as cheating is insulting, not just to the men who work hard to get the most out of their talents, but to those of us who appreciate what they can do. It demeans the game and the accomplishments of its best players.

Not believing that Nolan Ryan, Greg Maddux and even Frank Thomas used steroids isn't na´ve, but associating them with steroids, absent any evidence other than their success, is certainly cynical.
I hate to think Maddux used but it is strange how so many players during the steroid era played at such high levels at such old ages when nobody really in the history of baseball played at such high levels like these guys did.. I would be very shocked if Frank Thomas used due to his normal decline but Nolan Ryan looks pretty guilty to me. Even players of today are starting to decline in a normal matter unlike these steroid era guys. I don't think thats being cynical at all.
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  #37  
Old 11-30-2013, 12:16 PM
mzh mzh is offline
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Originally Posted by chicagowhitesox1 View Post
I hate to think Maddux used but it is strange how so many players during the steroid era played at such high levels at such old ages when nobody really in the history of baseball played at such high levels like these guys did.. I would be very shocked if Frank Thomas used due to his normal decline but Nolan Ryan looks pretty guilty to me. Even players of today are starting to decline in a normal matter unlike these steroid era guys. I don't think thats being cynical at all.
Saying that nobody in the history of baseball played as such high levels is just blatantly untrue. Babe Ruth? Walter Johnson? Mantle, DiMaggio, Pete Alexander, Dizzy Dean? Hello?
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  #38  
Old 11-30-2013, 12:25 PM
chicagowhitesox1 chicagowhitesox1 is offline
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Saying that nobody in the history of baseball played as such high levels is just blatantly untrue. Babe Ruth? Walter Johnson? Mantle, DiMaggio, Pete Alexander, Dizzy Dean? Hello?
You better do your research because none of these guys were productive after 40. A few of them didn't even play when they were 40.

Putting Dizzy Dean on this list is actually humorous. He was injured in a allstar game which cut his career short.

You could have at least put down Ted Williams or Warren Spahn instead of these guys.
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  #39  
Old 11-30-2013, 12:35 PM
mzh mzh is offline
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Originally Posted by chicagowhitesox1 View Post
You better do your research because none of these guys were productive after 40. A few of them didn't even play when they were 40.

Putting Dizzy Dean on this list is actually humorous. He was injured in a allstar game which cut his career short.

You could have at least put down Ted Williams or Warren Spahn instead of these guys.
Not sure what your point is. Maddux and Ripken weren't particularly successful after forty either. Frankly, I'm a bit insulted that I'm the one being told to do my research here.

As for Dean, I misread your qualification of success at old age. Are you accusing Jamie Moyer as well, then?
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  #40  
Old 11-30-2013, 12:44 PM
mzh mzh is offline
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In addition, if steroids were so effective in extending careers, why is Nolan Ryan the only one? Why weren't guys pitching into their forties at the same rate that home runs were going at the height of the Bonds/Sosa/McGwire era?

Look at a picture of Mariano Rivera, for crying out loud. So much muscle mass. Guys are totally ripped.
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  #41  
Old 11-30-2013, 12:59 PM
chicagowhitesox1 chicagowhitesox1 is offline
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Originally Posted by mzh View Post
Not sure what your point is. Maddux and Ripken weren't particularly successful after forty either. Frankly, I'm a bit insulted that I'm the one being told to do my research here.

As for Dean, I misread your qualification of success at old age. Are you accusing Jamie Moyer as well, then?
I would think Moyer was clean. My point is that there were alot of guys in that era having strong careers at ages when most players start declining. Back in the 90's everyone was saying it was conditioning and praising their work efforts but in reality it wasn't work ethics, it was peds.

Albert Pujols is a good example, I feel alot of people felt he could actually play until he was 40 and that he would have a Barry Bonds type of end of career but he can workout all he wants but without some kind of ped he will never be the hitter he used to be.
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  #42  
Old 11-30-2013, 01:13 PM
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Originally Posted by chicagowhitesox1 View Post
I hate to think Maddux used but it is strange how so many players during the steroid era played at such high levels at such old ages when nobody really in the history of baseball played at such high levels like these guys did.. I would be very shocked if Frank Thomas used due to his normal decline but Nolan Ryan looks pretty guilty to me. Even players of today are starting to decline in a normal matter unlike these steroid era guys. I don't think thats being cynical at all.
Ted Williams turned 39 during a season in which he hit .388 with 38 home runs. People who knew him said he never drank anything stronger than milk. Players decline for different reasons (and, indeed, after 40, Ted Williams had his only sub 1.000-OPS season before bouncing back, a neck injury being to blame). Mickey Mantle was done in his mid-30s, but high school football left him osteomyelitis, a disease that would have put him in a wheelchair a generation earlier, and he would go through two livers before his death, heavy drinking not being something he took up in retirement.

There are players who don't decline as rapidly as others because they avoid injury. There are players who don't decline as rapidly because they are more disciplined. There are players who don't decline as rapidly because they work harder to keep from declining. When I first saw John Kruk in the minors, I thought the Padres could have another Tony Gwynn. That belief only lasted for a couple of major league seasons.

Suggesting that players who are outliers on the bell-shaped curve of baseball production are suspect by their success is not just cynical. It is lazy analysis.
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  #43  
Old 11-30-2013, 01:17 PM
chicagowhitesox1 chicagowhitesox1 is offline
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Originally Posted by mzh View Post
In addition, if steroids were so effective in extending careers, why is Nolan Ryan the only one? Why weren't guys pitching into their forties at the same rate that home runs were going at the height of the Bonds/Sosa/McGwire era?

Look at a picture of Mariano Rivera, for crying out loud. So much muscle mass. Guys are totally ripped.
Pitchers from the steroid era who were older pitched better than younger pitchers and this was the only time in history when this happened. 1994 to 2004.

I'm not accusing Mariano Rivera but all I meant by using his name was that I wouldn't be surprised if Suzuki, Maddux or Rivera had used at some point in their careers.
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  #44  
Old 11-30-2013, 01:25 PM
chicagowhitesox1 chicagowhitesox1 is offline
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Originally Posted by TDog View Post
Ted Williams turned 39 during a season in which he hit .388 with 38 home runs. People who knew him said he never drank anything stronger than milk. Players decline for different reasons (and, indeed, after 40, Ted Williams had his only sub 1.000-OPS season before bouncing back, a neck injury being to blame). Mickey Mantle was done in his mid-30s, but high school football left him osteomyelitis, a disease that would have put him in a wheelchair a generation earlier, and he would go through two livers before his death, heavy drinking not being something he took up in retirement.

There are players who don't decline as rapidly as others because they avoid injury. There are players who don't decline as rapidly because they are more disciplined. There are players who don't decline as rapidly because they work harder to keep from declining. When I first saw John Kruk in the minors, I thought the Padres could have another Tony Gwynn. That belief only lasted for a couple of major league seasons.

Suggesting that players who are outliers on the bell-shaped curve of baseball production are suspect by their success is not just cynical. It is lazy analysis.
Ted Williams and Warren Spahn both have stated that a big reason why they played at highl levels at an older age is because of time missed from war. I don't know if thats why they were effective but maybe the missed time did help prolong their careers because really they are two of a very small list who played at a decent level at an older age. Stan Musial would be another but he also missed time due to war. I know Bob Feler stated many times that the war saved his arm so maybe the missed time really did help out.
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  #45  
Old 11-30-2013, 02:12 PM
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Originally Posted by chicagowhitesox1 View Post
Ted Williams and Warren Spahn both have stated that a big reason why they played at highl levels at an older age is because of time missed from war. I don't know if thats why they were effective but maybe the missed time did help prolong their careers because really they are two of a very small list who played at a decent level at an older age. Stan Musial would be another but he also missed time due to war. I know Bob Feler stated many times that the war saved his arm so maybe the missed time really did help out.
In Warren Spahn's case, it wasn't the time off that he credited, but the maturity he gained. He was a combat engineer during the Battle of Bulge and distinguished himself to the point where he received a commission in the field. He said that with what he had been through, he was a different person. Ted Williams trained Navy pilots during World War II. Later, his fighter was hit by enemy fire on a mission during the Korean War. Getting back to base alive was likely more intense than hitting third for the Red Sox. I don't think Spahn or Williams ever said anything about saving their careers for an age when their bones would be more brittle. As I recall, Williams in his autobiography wrote that military service took away prime athletic years and a chance to challenge Babe Ruth's career home run record.

Of course, there were other players who came back from America's wars and didn't have the productive years they missed tacked on at the end. Bob Feller, Rapid Robert, declined rapidly after the age of 32, despite having the advantage of three seasons off in the 1940s. There were even those who couldn't complete at the same level upon coming home, even if they didn't sustain injury in a military uniform.

But, really, you don't know if Tony Gwynn had missed three seasons during his athletic prime that he wouldn't have been hitting over .320 at the age of 44 as well as the age of 41.

Last edited by TDog; 11-30-2013 at 02:57 PM.
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