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  #16  
Old 11-27-2013, 02:27 AM
chicagowhitesox1 chicagowhitesox1 is offline
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Originally Posted by doublem23 View Post
A 300 game winner?
There's been a few 300 game winners who had to wait. I think Glavine will be another. He is a Hall of Famer but lets be honest, he was a bit overrated. He reminds me of Don Sutton.
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  #17  
Old 11-27-2013, 08:12 AM
Moses_Scurry Moses_Scurry is offline
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I don't know if this is any indication of anything at all, but this morning on the XM MLB talk show, they extensively talked about Glavine, Maddux, and some of the borderline guys, but I don't think they mentioned Frank's name once. You can't extrapolate 2 guys to the entire group of baseball writers, plus it's possible that they covered Frank at a time when I wasn't in the car listening, but it could mean that we have to wait a year.
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  #18  
Old 11-27-2013, 08:46 AM
SephClone89 SephClone89 is offline
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Originally Posted by Moses_Scurry View Post
I don't know if this is any indication of anything at all, but this morning on the XM MLB talk show, they extensively talked about Glavine, Maddux, and some of the borderline guys, but I don't think they mentioned Frank's name once. You can't extrapolate 2 guys to the entire group of baseball writers, plus it's possible that they covered Frank at a time when I wasn't in the car listening, but it could mean that we have to wait a year.
I heard the afternoon show yesterday and they specifically discussed Frank (before the others) with both saying to them e's a no-doubt first ballot guy but with how moronic the voters are they wouldn't be shocked if he had to wait.
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  #19  
Old 11-27-2013, 09:28 AM
sox1970 sox1970 is offline
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Collectively, the writers did a pretty good job over the years. But with new numbers, new forms of media, and the chaos created by the steroid era, it's time for the Hall of Fame to discontinue the use of the BBWAA as the electorate.
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  #20  
Old 11-27-2013, 02:47 PM
happydude happydude is offline
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Of course Frank is a HOF'er but I'm a little surprised at the number of guys who believe that him getting in on the first ballot is a foregone conclusion. I hope it happens but I wouldn't be surprised at all if he has to wait a year or two. I think Maddux and Glavine are the only sure bets on that list to go in this year.
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  #21  
Old 11-27-2013, 04:45 PM
TDog TDog is offline
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Originally Posted by sox1970 View Post
Collectively, the writers did a pretty good job over the years. But with new numbers, new forms of media, and the chaos created by the steroid era, it's time for the Hall of Fame to discontinue the use of the BBWAA as the electorate.
You have the Veterans Committee. As much as people complain about the BBWAA (which isn't limited to print media, see Article IV), its qualified Hall of Fame voters do a better job than the non-BBWAA new media clowns would. Incorporating announcers and fans in the process would be even worse. I've heard people say announcers deserve some say, but have been more than a few announcers who have spent considerable on-air time whining about their overlooked Hall of Fame qualifications. And to announcer Jim Kaat's credit, he isn't among them.

You could put the Hall of Fame entirely in the hands of the Veterans Committee. Certainly, if you did, you wouldn't get any of the steroids bunch on the podium in Cooperstown.
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  #22  
Old 11-28-2013, 02:37 AM
chicagowhitesox1 chicagowhitesox1 is offline
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Originally Posted by happydude View Post
Of course Frank is a HOF'er but I'm a little surprised at the number of guys who believe that him getting in on the first ballot is a foregone conclusion. I hope it happens but I wouldn't be surprised at all if he has to wait a year or two. I think Maddux and Glavine are the only sure bets on that list to go in this year.
Frank Thomas was arguably the best hitter of his era while Glavine was never close to being the best pitcher of his era. I would say Thomas and Maddux are the only two sure bets.
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  #23  
Old 11-28-2013, 03:23 AM
happydude happydude is offline
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Originally Posted by chicagowhitesox1 View Post
Frank Thomas was arguably the best hitter of his era while Glavine was never close to being the best pitcher of his era. I would say Thomas and Maddux are the only two sure bets.
Two Cy Youngs, 5 seasons of 20-plus wins from '90 to '00, 6 top 3 finishes in Cy Young from '90 to '00, World Series MVP, and 300 wins seems mighty impressive to me; whether he was the "best" of his era or not.

Frank may have been the best right handed hitter of his era (I'd pick Tony Gwynn as the best hitter during Frank's prime) but he wasn't exactly a complete player and spent a pretty big chunk of his career as a DH; I think his lack of defensive prowess and the fact he played on mostly forgettable teams may cost him. Especially given the fact that he doesn't possess the type of eye-popping final numbers that could inspire voters to overlook any negatives in his resume; for a guy regarded as a great hitter the failure to reach the 3,000 hit milestone despite playing for almost two decades isn't good. The he-put-up-legit-numbers-during-the-steroid-era argument may give him a push but I don't know.

There's no doubt of his worthiness but the voters have historically been reluctant to put a guy in the first year even if they knew full well he was a HOF'er. I guess we'll see. Hopefully you're right.

Last edited by happydude; 11-28-2013 at 03:28 AM.
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  #24  
Old 11-28-2013, 06:23 AM
chicagowhitesox1 chicagowhitesox1 is offline
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Originally Posted by happydude View Post
Two Cy Youngs, 5 seasons of 20-plus wins from '90 to '00, 6 top 3 finishes in Cy Young from '90 to '00, World Series MVP, and 300 wins seems mighty impressive to me; whether he was the "best" of his era or not.

Frank may have been the best right handed hitter of his era (I'd pick Tony Gwynn as the best hitter during Frank's prime) but he wasn't exactly a complete player and spent a pretty big chunk of his career as a DH; I think his lack of defensive prowess and the fact he played on mostly forgettable teams may cost him. Especially given the fact that he doesn't possess the type of eye-popping final numbers that could inspire voters to overlook any negatives in his resume; for a guy regarded as a great hitter the failure to reach the 3,000 hit milestone despite playing for almost two decades isn't good. The he-put-up-legit-numbers-during-the-steroid-era argument may give him a push but I don't know.

There's no doubt of his worthiness but the voters have historically been reluctant to put a guy in the first year even if they knew full well he was a HOF'er. I guess we'll see. Hopefully you're right.
Glavine does have a nice resume and it's a shame that he may not make it his first year eligable because he is a Hall of Famer but I think Frank Thomas even with his dreadful defense was much more dominant. I can't imagine how a guy with the second highest OPS in baseball history over an 8 year period could be beat out by a pitcher who was kind of a compiler. Also even though Glavine won 2 Cy Young awards, he really only deserved one while Thomas deserved a third MVP. It will be interesting on what happens though, if it was up to me, I would have Maddux, Thomas and Glavine going in. It wouldn't surprise me if only Maddux went in though. I really think guys like Morris and the steroid users will really clog up the ballots again. Thats the big reason why I doubt Glavine makes it.
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  #25  
Old 11-28-2013, 10:28 AM
CHISOXFAN13 CHISOXFAN13 is offline
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Originally Posted by happydude View Post
Two Cy Youngs, 5 seasons of 20-plus wins from '90 to '00, 6 top 3 finishes in Cy Young from '90 to '00, World Series MVP, and 300 wins seems mighty impressive to me; whether he was the "best" of his era or not.

Frank may have been the best right handed hitter of his era (I'd pick Tony Gwynn as the best hitter during Frank's prime) but he wasn't exactly a complete player and spent a pretty big chunk of his career as a DH; I think his lack of defensive prowess and the fact he played on mostly forgettable teams may cost him. Especially given the fact that he doesn't possess the type of eye-popping final numbers that could inspire voters to overlook any negatives in his resume; for a guy regarded as a great hitter the failure to reach the 3,000 hit milestone despite playing for almost two decades isn't good. The he-put-up-legit-numbers-during-the-steroid-era argument may give him a push but I don't know.

There's no doubt of his worthiness but the voters have historically been reluctant to put a guy in the first year even if they knew full well he was a HOF'er. I guess we'll see. Hopefully you're right.
His OBP and OPS mumbers are some of the most impressive stats in baseball history. Dude led the league in walks four times and had 100 or more free passes in 10 seasons. He would have reached 3,000 hits easily if pitchers weren't scared ****less of pitching to him.
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  #26  
Old 11-28-2013, 12:06 PM
happydude happydude is offline
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Originally Posted by chicagowhitesox1 View Post
Glavine does have a nice resume and it's a shame that he may not make it his first year eligable because he is a Hall of Famer but I think Frank Thomas even with his dreadful defense was much more dominant. I can't imagine how a guy with the second highest OPS in baseball history over an 8 year period could be beat out by a pitcher who was kind of a compiler. Also even though Glavine won 2 Cy Young awards, he really only deserved one while Thomas deserved a third MVP. It will be interesting on what happens though, if it was up to me, I would have Maddux, Thomas and Glavine going in. It wouldn't surprise me if only Maddux went in though. I really think guys like Morris and the steroid users will really clog up the ballots again. Thats the big reason why I doubt Glavine makes it.
This is a good point. Wasn't Craig Biggio eligible last year? He didn't get in despite the fact he has the magic 3,000 hits. He definitely fits the "compiler" profile. Frank WAS awfully dominant when he was rolling.
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  #27  
Old 11-28-2013, 01:40 PM
chicagowhitesox1 chicagowhitesox1 is offline
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Originally Posted by happydude View Post
This is a good point. Wasn't Craig Biggio eligible last year? He didn't get in despite the fact he has the magic 3,000 hits. He definitely fits the "compiler" profile. Frank WAS awfully dominant when he was rolling.
Biggio will be an interesting case. I was kinda surprised he didn't get more votes last year which really makes me wonder if he was penalized for steroids. He's always been known as a clean type of player but these voters have the dirt on who really used and I hate to accuse a guy who was clean but I would have to think he used steroids at some point of his career, especially due to the fact that he was best friends with some of the biggest steroid users of the time. On the other hand Bagwell who has always claimed he was clean keeps getting more support each year which makes no sense because he was deff a user and I hate to say it but if guys like Biggio and Bagwell get in then Barry Bonds deserves to be in too.

The whole thing is becoming a joke though, there's even whispers of Greg Maddux using. Not to mention the fact that there is already players in the Hall of Fame who were users. I just have a hard time penalizing guys for something MLB basically encouraged.
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  #28  
Old 11-28-2013, 02:06 PM
mzh mzh is offline
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Originally Posted by chicagowhitesox1 View Post
The whole thing is becoming a joke though, there's even whispers of Greg Maddux using. Not to mention the fact that there is already players in the Hall of Fame who were users. I just have a hard time penalizing guys for something MLB basically encouraged.
Whispers from who? Some numbnut calling into The Score at 3 AM on a Tuesday?

Regardless, it's going to be an interesting year. The writers are so full of themselves and their hallowed 'traditions' that it's hardly worth debating, IMHO. It's almost like the argument of what exactly MVP means.
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  #29  
Old 11-28-2013, 03:19 PM
Boondock Saint Boondock Saint is offline
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I wonder if the backlash from last year's "nobody gets in" fiasco will cause the voters to be more "generous" with their votes this year.
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  #30  
Old 11-28-2013, 09:25 PM
HomeFish HomeFish is offline
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I think Glavine and Maddux get in, but Frank waits a year or two. At the end of the day, playing for the White Sox is a disadvantage.
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