Sale for Cy Young?

[TDog]

Originally Posted by SephClone89

You live on another planet. Just about every stat (EXCEPT FOR W-L) shows that there is at most a negligible difference between the two. I can't believe this thread is still going on.

I live on the planet where people watch baseball. Once again, the fact that you can use stats to argue that Sale and Scherzer are enjoying roughly equivalent seasons reflects poorly on your use of stats.

[kittle42]

Originally Posted by TDog

I live on the planet where people watch baseball. Once again, the fact that you can use stats to argue that Sale and Scherzer are enjoying roughly equivalent seasons reflects poorly on your use of stats.

All you having going for you in this fight is that Chris Sale plays on a horrendous team. If he had 15+ wins, you wouldn't even be making your point.

Also, I assume from your ability to so correctly gauge the relative performances of Sale and Scherzer by watching baseball that you have viewed most or all of Scherzer's starts?

[TDog]

Originally Posted by kittle42

All you having going for you in this fight is that Chris Sale plays on a horrendous team. If he had 15+ wins, you wouldn't even be making your point.

Also, I assume from your ability to so correctly gauge the relative performances of Sale and Scherzer by watching baseball that you have viewed most or all of Scherzer's starts?

I have watched some Scherzer's starts this year. I've watched quite a few of Sale's starts. I've probably seen more of Scherzer than Sale, but I've seen disappointing efforts from Sale, along with a couple of brilliant outings. I have a better handle on the comparisons between the two pitchers than those taking overall statistics out of context.

If Sale were pitching as well as Scherzer, if he were as good at protecting leads as Scherzer has been this year, he would have 15-plus wins for this year's White Sox. Sale isn't pitching nearly as well as pitchers who have pitched for horrendous teams while winning the Cy Young Award. I would ask Steve Carlton for comment, but he doesn't talk to the media.

I forgot to add that the world I live in is one where Sale won't come close to winning the Cy Young Award this year. I doubt he believes he has any sort of claim to it. Outside of this forum, I don't think there are many who consider Sale's season close to resembling a Cy Young-worthy season.

[doublem23]

Originally Posted by TDog

I forgot to add that the world I live in is one where Sale won't come close to winning the Cy Young Award this year. I doubt he believes he has any sort of claim to it. Outside of this forum, I don't think there are many who consider Sale's season close to resembling a Cy Young-worthy season.

You guys have got to figure out how this internet thing works

http://insider.espn.go.com/mlb/story...oung-award-mlb

That took 5 seconds.

[kittle42]

Originally Posted by TDog

I forgot to add that the world I live in is one where Sale won't come close to winning the Cy Young Award this year. I doubt he believes he has any sort of claim to it. Outside of this forum, I don't think there are many who consider Sale's season close to resembling a Cy Young-worthy season.

I have no illusions that Sale will win the Cy. I think he'll be top 5. Just backing up the assertion that Sale's peripherals are not all that much different than Scherzer's, which they are not.

See, one can be objective on this point while still believing Scherzer will (rightfully) win the Cy.

[Huisj]

Originally Posted by doublem23

You guys have got to figure out how this internet thing works

http://insider.espn.go.com/mlb/story...oung-award-mlb

That took 5 seconds.

You've got to figure out how this message board thread works.

http://www.whitesoxinteractive.com/v...55&postcount=1

That took 5 seconds (plus the 2+ days of responses that have made up this thread since that initial post).

[TDog]

Originally Posted by doublem23

You guys have got to figure out how this internet thing works

http://insider.espn.go.com/mlb/story...oung-award-mlb

That took 5 seconds.

I came across a Web site recently that argues aggressively that the earth is at the center of the universe. I dismissed it. And I refuse to believe that the baseball writers that have watched Chris Sale have an inconsistent season including a few brilliant performances, some losses where he couldn't hold leads and a few games like Sunday's will cheapen the Cy Young Award by voting for him over Max Scherzer.

It's possible that Sale will get a few votes. There were baseball writers that left Henry Aaron off their Hall of Fame ballots the only year he was eligible for election.

[blandman]

Originally Posted by TDog

I came across a Web site recently that argues aggressively that the earth is at the center of the universe. I dismissed it. And I refuse to believe that the baseball writers that have watched Chris Sale have an inconsistent season including a few brilliant performances, some losses where he couldn't hold leads and a few games like Sunday's will cheapen the Cy Young Award by voting for him over Max Scherzer.

It's possible that Sale will get a few votes. There were baseball writers that left Henry Aaron off their Hall of Fame ballots the only year he was eligible for election.

Sale leads the league in quality starts, complete games, and OPS allowed in late leverage situations. He has not had a few brilliant performances marred by inconsistent ones. He has been the most consistently brilliant pitcher in baseball period. To argue otherwise is to ignore all evidence entirely, which it seems you are doing.

It's one thing to argue that Scherzer is going to win because ignorant writers think win-lose record is an effective tool in analyzing performance. It's quite another to suggest that Scherzer's going to win because he's been as good as Sale. He has not. There are pitchers in between Scherzer and Sale when it comes to best pitcher this year. Scherzer, at best, is having the fourth best season of pitchers in the AL.

[TDog]

Originally Posted by blandman

Sale leads the league in quality starts, complete games, and OPS allowed in late leverage situations. He has not had a few brilliant performances marred by inconsistent ones. He has been the most consistently brilliant pitcher in baseball period. To argue otherwise is to ignore all evidence entirely, which it seems you are doing.

It's one thing to argue that Scherzer is going to win because ignorant writers think win-lose record is an effective tool in analyzing performance. It's quite another to suggest that Scherzer's going to win because he's been as good as Sale. He has not. There are pitchers in between Scherzer and Sale when it comes to best pitcher this year. Scherzer, at best, is having the fourth best season of pitchers in the AL.

Sale has an ERA in excess of 8 against the Indians, in excess of 6 against the Rangers and in excess of 5 against the Twins. Those four teams represent about 28 percent of his starts. Sale's April ERA was over 4 and his ERA since the beginning of August is approaching 4. Only in May and July has he had a sub-3 ERA. It's true he had an ERA less than 1 in April, but I don't see consistency in his statistics.

[Mr. Jinx]

Originally Posted by TDog

I came across a Web site recently that argues aggressively that the earth is at the center of the universe. I dismissed it. And I refuse to believe that the baseball writers that have watched Chris Sale have an inconsistent season including a few brilliant performances, some losses where he couldn't hold leads and a few games like Sunday's will cheapen the Cy Young Award by voting for him over Max Scherzer.

It's possible that Sale will get a few votes. There were baseball writers that left Henry Aaron off their Hall of Fame ballots the only year he was eligible for election.

They were just taking a moral stand against PED users.

[doublem23]

Originally Posted by TDog

I came across a Web site recently that argues aggressively that the earth is at the center of the universe. I dismissed it. And I refuse to believe that the baseball writers that have watched Chris Sale have an inconsistent season including a few brilliant performances, some losses where he couldn't hold leads and a few games like Sunday's will cheapen the Cy Young Award by voting for him over Max Scherzer.

It's possible that Sale will get a few votes. There were baseball writers that left Henry Aaron off their Hall of Fame ballots the only year he was eligible for election.

Yes, you have hit the nail on the head, a lunatic fringe website arguing something that was disproven centuries ago is equitable with ESPN, arguably the most cited sports journalism outfit in the country.

Threads like these can be maddening, but it's always fun watching somebody try and dig out of a hole they have buried themselves in.

[shes]

I wonder if TDog actually believes anything he's saying or if he's just havin' a laff.

[TDog]

Originally Posted by doublem23

Yes, you have hit the nail on the head, a lunatic fringe website arguing something that was disproven centuries ago is equitable with ESPN, arguably the most cited sports journalism outfit in the country.

Threads like these can be maddening, but it's always fun watching somebody try and dig out of a hole they have buried themselves in.

I don't know what I've last heard ESPN referred to as credible, but I don't believe it was on WSI. Apparently it's only credible if you agree with it.

Obviously if you have your mind made up that isolated out-of-context stats are the only thing that determine how well a pitcher has pitched, that losing games your team gives you a chance to win and the occasional forgettable outing where you never gave your team a chance to win shouldn't count against you, no argument will change your mind. Forget the grand slams allowed after he put men on base with walks or by hitting them. Argue that he plays for a lousy team that loses a lot but ignore the blame he shares in some of those losses.

If you are so committed to the statistics that overlook Sale's inconsistency in favor of the facts that point out he has been inconsistent in context of being a staff ace, then there is no point in a rational discussion.

If baseball consensus held that Chris Sale deserved the Cy Young Award this year, there would be ESPN Insider columns pointing out that in the same number of innings Max Scherzer has given up fewer runs, fewer hits, fewer home runs, fewer grand slams, fewer grand slams while holding a 3-0 lead and has struck out more hitters. At the same time, Scherzer has struck out more hitters and has done more to help his team win. The only thing I can guess is that there are some people who hate the win-loss stat so much that they actually penalize pitchers for winning games.

Scherzer has had a better season than Sale. I can't imagine Scherzer having a better season in his career than he is right now. The thing is, I can imagine Sale having a better season than he is having. I would hope he has multiple better seasons. I'm a big Chris Sale fan. I drove 100 miles just to see him pitch in person this year. I expected him to have a much better season after watching him pitch on opening day.

But I'm not going to make an argument that Sale deserves the Cy Young this year because depending on the statistics you look at, he has almost been as good as Scherzer.

[kittle42]

Originally Posted by TDog

fewer grand slams, fewer grand slams while holding a 3-0 lead.

Great metrics.

[SephClone89]

Originally Posted by TDog

I don't know what I've last heard ESPN referred to as credible, but I don't believe it was on WSI. Apparently it's only credible if you agree with it.

Obviously if you have your mind made up that isolated out-of-context stats are the only thing that determine how well a pitcher has pitched, that losing games your team gives you a chance to win and the occasional forgettable outing where you never gave your team a chance to win shouldn't count against you, no argument will change your mind. Forget the grand slams allowed after he put men on base with walks or by hitting them. Argue that he plays for a lousy team that loses a lot but ignore the blame he shares in some of those losses.

If you are so committed to the statistics that overlook Sale's inconsistency in favor of the facts that point out he has been inconsistent in context of being a staff ace, then there is no point in a rational discussion.

If baseball consensus held that Chris Sale deserved the Cy Young Award this year, there would be ESPN Insider columns pointing out that in the same number of innings Max Scherzer has given up fewer runs, fewer hits, fewer home runs, fewer grand slams, fewer grand slams while holding a 3-0 lead and has struck out more hitters. At the same time, Scherzer has struck out more hitters and has done more to help his team win. The only thing I can guess is that there are some people who hate the win-loss stat so much that they actually penalize pitchers for winning games.

Scherzer has had a better season than Sale. I can't imagine Scherzer having a better season in his career than he is right now. The thing is, I can imagine Sale having a better season than he is having. I would hope he has multiple better seasons. I'm a big Chris Sale fan. I drove 100 miles just to see him pitch in person this year. I expected him to have a much better season after watching him pitch on opening day.

But I'm not going to make an argument that Sale deserves the Cy Young this year because depending on the statistics you look at, he has almost been as good as Scherzer.

Honest question. If you've been disappointed in Sale's season--his second year as a starter where he's guaranteed to at least match his 6th-place in Cy Young voting from his first year--what do you honestly expect from him? He's already been an elite pitcher in his first two seasons as a starter. Will you not be satisfied unless he's Clayton Kershaw?

We haven't seen a Sox pitcher put up consecutive seasons of this quality since McDowell twenty years ago--if then.