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  #166  
Old 09-30-2013, 01:20 PM
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doublem23 doublem23 is offline
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Originally Posted by kittle42 View Post
That is a decent argument, but you have basically stated in other posts that a manager has *zero* (or at least next to nothing) to do with a team's performance. Hey, why even have one, then?

I do not think that is a position you can defend.

Oh, the Cubs fired Sveum today. Wow, what morons. I mean, he had a bad roster, so what was the basis for firing him?

Find me one reason Sveum should be gone and Ventura retained. At least the Cubs basically admitted they were tanking the season, so really, you would have a better argument as it related to Sveum.
I think managers way back in the day had a lot more to do with the success or failure of their teams; a generation ago players weren't baseball players only, many of them supplemented their income with odd jobs during the off-season.

Nowadays, athletes are pro athletes and pro athletes only. These guys know their jobs, it's a managers job to put them in the best position to succeed, which I don't know that Ventura has done (he's made some pretty curious pitching and pinch hitting moves).

I think the difference between Sveum and Ventura is that Robin's roster is pretty much devoid of much up and coming talent, whereas Sveum had a couple of "superstars" in training in Castro and Rizzo who have, frankly, regressed.
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  #167  
Old 09-30-2013, 01:41 PM
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Originally Posted by doublem23 View Post
I think managers way back in the day had a lot more to do with the success or failure of their teams; a generation ago players weren't baseball players only, many of them supplemented their income with odd jobs during the off-season.

Nowadays, athletes are pro athletes and pro athletes only. These guys know their jobs, it's a managers job to put them in the best position to succeed, which I don't know that Ventura has done (he's made some pretty curious pitching and pinch hitting moves).

I think the difference between Sveum and Ventura is that Robin's roster is pretty much devoid of much up and coming talent, whereas Sveum had a couple of "superstars" in training in Castro and Rizzo who have, frankly, regressed.
That is the main difference, and right now, it's anybody's guess whether that was really Sveum's fault. I suspect he won't be the last manager who fails to reach Castro, but that's speculation on my part. It's possible the Cubs' front office just whiffed on their evaluations of Castro and Rizzo, and that they aren't really stars in training. If that proves to be true, it would probably shock the Chicago media world. Only time will tell. Really, the only young star the Sox have is Sale, and he is fulfilling his promise. Chris should have won 17 or 18 games easy with the way he pitched this year.
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  #168  
Old 09-30-2013, 01:58 PM
soxfan1965 soxfan1965 is offline
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Cubs didn't wait.
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  #169  
Old 09-30-2013, 02:04 PM
dickallen15 dickallen15 is offline
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Originally Posted by kittle42 View Post
That is a decent argument, but you have basically stated in other posts that a manager has *zero* (or at least next to nothing) to do with a team's performance. Hey, why even have one, then?

I do not think that is a position you can defend.

Oh, the Cubs fired Sveum today. Wow, what morons. I mean, he had a bad roster, so what was the basis for firing him?

Find me one reason Sveum should be gone and Ventura retained. At least the Cubs basically admitted they were tanking the season, so really, you would have a better argument as it related to Sveum.
Theo said it wasn't based on wins and losses. I am not inside the Cubs clubhouse and haven't watched a full inning of one of their games all year. I couldn't tell you if Sveum should have been fired. I have watched the White Sox and see no reason why major league players getting picked off of 3rd base multiple times can be blamed on the manager. I do think this probably was Theo's plan all along. He knew the team was going to be pathetic for a while and probably didn't want the guy he really wants when they are ready to win getting beat up and sick of it to the point he may leave. Theo did fire Rudy Jaramillo last year, and apparently he was the problem because their hitters just took off. Oh wait. Greg Walker used to be the idiot hitting coach of the White Sox. For some reason the Braves hired him. Now the Braves are in the playoffs with a top 5 offense. Go figure. Ventura managed the team to 85 wins last year, then must have taken stupid pills all winter so they win 63. The White Sox are doing the correct thing and blaming the players. Denying that would mean a longer period of struggling.

And I have never said the manager makes zero difference. Just not as big as many think. The manager isn't the difference between the Sox winning 63 or 93 this season.

The Twins signed Gardy to a 2 year extension despite losing 90 + 3 years in a row. Losing is not always on the manager.

Last edited by dickallen15; 09-30-2013 at 02:19 PM.
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  #170  
Old 09-30-2013, 02:06 PM
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Really, the only young star the Sox have is Sale, and he is fulfilling his promise. Chris should have won 17 or 18 games easy with the way he pitched this year.
For as bad as the Sox are at developing hitters, they have done a very good job at developing pitching. Sale has reached the absolute peak of his potential. Quintana has developed probably beyond anyone's wildest dreams. Early look at Johnson is very intriguing. Santiago was a mid-30th round draft pick.
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  #171  
Old 09-30-2013, 02:22 PM
kittle42 kittle42 is offline
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Go figure. Ventura managed the team to 85 wins last year
85 wins is not impressive.
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  #172  
Old 09-30-2013, 03:03 PM
dickallen15 dickallen15 is offline
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85 wins is not impressive.
With Adam Dunn as a #3 hitter? It's almost as impressive as the coaching job Lovie Smith did to get a Rex Grossman-QBed team into the Super Bowl.
Don't you think Tony LaRussa should have been fired after he managed the 1984 White Sox, who had basically the same team, except for adding Tom Seaver as the 1983 White Sox who won the division, to 74 wins?
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  #173  
Old 09-30-2013, 03:25 PM
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What I find funny is, at the beginning of the season, people were predicting this team was going to be bad (because of the product that would be taking the field, not because of the manager), from baseball journalists to the experts here at WSI. Unfortunately, the experts were right, including the ones here at WSI. So, now that it has been proven that this team was terrible this year, everyone points to...the manager. Not saying Ventura is without fault, but I think a question that has been asked here has largely gone unanswered. What manager could've directed this team into contention? I hear a lot of blame of the manager, but no one has presented an option that they feel would've produced a different result.
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  #174  
Old 09-30-2013, 03:46 PM
Tragg Tragg is offline
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Originally Posted by dickallen15 View Post
With Adam Dunn as a #3 hitter? It's almost as impressive as the coaching job Lovie Smith did to get a Rex Grossman-QBed team into the Super Bowl.
Don't you think Tony LaRussa should have been fired after he managed the 1984 White Sox, who had basically the same team, except for adding Tom Seaver as the 1983 White Sox who won the division, to 74 wins?
Remind me of the division and the 99 games that Ventura won?

60 wins, even out of this talent, is pitiful.
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  #175  
Old 09-30-2013, 04:02 PM
The Immigrant The Immigrant is offline
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What manager could've directed this team into contention? I hear a lot of blame of the manager, but no one has presented an option that they feel would've produced a different result.
I don't know about contention, but I think someone like Terry Francona could have gotten another 8-10 wins out of this team. However, the only thing such an outcome would have been good for is a lower draft pick, so I'm fine with letting Robin drive this party bus into a wall.
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  #176  
Old 09-30-2013, 04:10 PM
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I don't know about contention, but I think someone like Terry Francona could have gotten another 8-10 wins out of this team. However, the only thing such an outcome would have been good for is a lower draft pick, so I'm fine with letting Robin drive this party bus into a wall.
Franconia has also managed 13 seasons. Ventura has managed 2. Francona lost over 90 games 2 of his first 4 seasons as manager.
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  #177  
Old 09-30-2013, 04:15 PM
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I get the impression that those who strongly feel that Ventura should be fired felt strongly that he shouldn't have been hired in the first place. For the record, I've always been lukewarm about Ventura as the manager but I have never been in favor of firing a coach/manager based almost solely on win/loss record, as I see more than a couple of posters suggest. I wouldn't care if Ventura was fired this offseason, but I would be disappointed to hear as the only reason given that the team lost 99 games this year.
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  #178  
Old 09-30-2013, 04:20 PM
kittle42 kittle42 is offline
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Originally Posted by dickallen15 View Post
Don't you think Tony LaRussa should have been fired after he managed the 1984 White Sox, who had basically the same team, except for adding Tom Seaver as the 1983 White Sox who won the division, to 74 wins?
These posts keep making the hole deeper. He just came off a surprising 99 win season and a division championship. When Robin does that, let me know and we'll lengthen his rope.
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  #179  
Old 09-30-2013, 04:21 PM
kittle42 kittle42 is offline
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I get the impression that those who strongly feel that Ventura should be fired felt strongly that he shouldn't have been hired in the first place.
Bingo. But hey, he looked great in those commercials.
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  #180  
Old 09-30-2013, 04:47 PM
WhiteSox5187 WhiteSox5187 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by spawn View Post
What I find funny is, at the beginning of the season, people were predicting this team was going to be bad (because of the product that would be taking the field, not because of the manager), from baseball journalists to the experts here at WSI. Unfortunately, the experts were right, including the ones here at WSI. So, now that it has been proven that this team was terrible this year, everyone points to...the manager. Not saying Ventura is without fault, but I think a question that has been asked here has largely gone unanswered. What manager could've directed this team into contention? I hear a lot of blame of the manager, but no one has presented an option that they feel would've produced a different result.
I don't think it's that a manager could have directed this team into contention but it is more that the White Sox have gotten SO bad at EVERYTHING this season. Last year they were the best defensive team in the league, this year they were the worst. I'm not positive on this but it seems like we made more outs on the basepaths this year than any other team in the AL, how many did we make last year? We had a consistent problem of guys getting picked off and doubled off, those are things that I at least think are somewhat reflective of the manager.
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