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  #76  
Old 08-31-2013, 06:43 PM
PaleHoser PaleHoser is offline
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I'm a big Mark Buehrle fan, but my HoF criteria for a pitcher is pretty simple. If you had a must-win game and could pick from any pitcher in baseball, would he be in your Top 5?
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  #77  
Old 08-31-2013, 08:37 PM
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Brian26 Brian26 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chicagowhitesox1 View Post
If he puts up 3 more 200 inning seasons he will.
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Originally Posted by Mr. Jinx View Post
He won't even get 10% of the votes if he puts up 200 innings for 5 more years in a row.
If he pitches five more years of 200-inning ball, I would assume he would still be starting somewhat effectively (not relegated to the bullpen). That would be a total of 19 years in the league. Not many pitchers last 19 years.

I'm not saying he's going into the HOF, but after 19 years, he surely would garner >10% of the vote.
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  #78  
Old 08-31-2013, 09:08 PM
chicagowhitesox1 chicagowhitesox1 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Brian26 View Post
If he pitches five more years of 200-inning ball, I would assume he would still be starting somewhat effectively (not relegated to the bullpen). That would be a total of 19 years in the league. Not many pitchers last 19 years.

I'm not saying he's going into the HOF, but after 19 years, he surely would garner >10% of the vote.
Especially in Buehrle's era. He's never been a top 5 pitcher but all of these top 5 pitchers have all fizzled out, Buehrle just keeps going. I agree with the poster who pointed out that he would never want a guy like Buehrle to start a big game but I sure would want a guy like Buehrle on my team for 16 or 17 years.
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  #79  
Old 09-22-2013, 03:07 AM
waldo_the_wolf waldo_the_wolf is offline
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Congratulations to Burls, he has now pitched 200 innings with double-digit wins in 13 straight years. Interestingly, he's become a lot more of a strikeout pitcher this year. And I agree that if he pitches another five or six years at his normal rate, he will probably get a few hall of fame votes but that's it.
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  #80  
Old 09-18-2014, 04:51 AM
chicagowhitesox1 chicagowhitesox1 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chicagowhitesox1 View Post
Assuming Mark Buehrle reaches 200 innings this year, he will be in some pretty good company. Longest 200 innings streaks alltime.

1. Cy Young 19, HOF
2. Warren Spahn 17, HOF
3. Don Sutton 15, HOF
4. Gaylord Perry 15, HOF
5. Greg Maddux 14...he came 2 outs away from doing it 19 straight. HOF this year
6. Phil Niekro 14....1981 strike probably cost him 20 straight years. HOF
7. Christy Mathewson 14, HOF
8. Steve Carlton 13, HOF
9. Pud Galvin 13, HOF
10. Bobo Newsome 13, 51.7 war in 20 seasons. Buehrle is already at 54.9 in 14 seasons.
11. Kid Nichols 13, HOF
12. Eddie Plank 13, HOF
13. Jack Powell 13....a pitcher from the early 20th century. He gets mentioned for the hall of fame from some. 56.0 career war.
14. Red Ruffing 13, HOF
15. Tom Seaver 13, HOF
16. Vic Willis 13, HOF
17. Mark Buehrle 13 ???

The only other pitcher with a streak over 10 years, whose career ended after 1980 is Frank Viola with 10. If Buehrle reaches 15 straight seasons then it will be very hard to ignore him for the Hall of Fame.
He has a great shot of making it 14 straight 200 inning seasons.
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  #81  
Old 09-18-2014, 08:09 AM
amsteel amsteel is offline
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Impressive counting stats, pretty good, but not elite rate stats. Plus by the time they get around to voting on him I have a feeling people will be viewing HOF candidates more analytically, which won't do MB any favors.
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  #82  
Old 09-18-2014, 10:56 AM
kittle42 kittle42 is offline
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Talk of this sure died down.
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  #83  
Old 09-18-2014, 01:03 PM
cards press box cards press box is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SoxFanCPA View Post
Mark Buehrle is not going into the Hall of Fame.
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Originally Posted by SoxFanCPA View Post
He isn't getting in the HOF. Please stop.
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Originally Posted by BainesHOF View Post
The only chance Buehrle has to get into the Hall of Fame is if he buys a ticket.

To say the only reason Early Wynn got into the HOF because he won 300 games is like saying the only reason Neil Armstrong was an astronaut is because he walked on the moon.
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Originally Posted by Hitmen77 View Post
Agreed.

I think Mark should absolutely be a part of the White Sox Hall of Fame (if such a thing exists).

Anyone who thinks he's got a shot at the MLB HOF is smoking something.
OK, I'll play contrarian here. For several reasons, Buehrle should be elected to the Hall Fame.

1. He is quite comparable to Whitey Ford and no one questions that Ford is an all-time great who deserves to be in the Hall of Fame.

For his 16 year career, Ford went 236-106 with a 2.75 ERA. Ford averaged 3.1 walks per 9 innings and 5.6 K's per 9 innings. During his career, Ford had Casey Stengel's Yankees behind him -- one of the best offensive and defensive teams that the game has ever seen. Ford also had the benefit of being a lefty pitching in cavernous old Yankee Stadium with an extraordinarily deep center field and left center field. Finally, Ford pitched the second half of his career in the 60's, a noted pitchers era.

For his ongoing 15 year career, Buehrle is 198-151 with a 3.82 ERA. Buehrle has averaged 2.0 walks per nine innings and 5.2 K's per nine innings. Buehrle didn't have the Yankees playing behind him, pitched in a hitter's paradise and pitched in and era with steroids and the DH. The biggest difference between Ford and Buehrle is the ERA and that difference is attributable to external factors.

2. Buehrle is an extraordinary fielder and will have a string of gold gloves when he retires.

3. Buehrle was a key pitcher on a world champion, the 2005 White Sox.

4. Buehrle is a five time all-star, most recently in 2014.

5. Buehrle has thrown a no-hitter and a perfect game. Know how many pitchers have done that? Six: Cy Young, Addie Joss, Jim Bunning, Sandy Koufax, Randy Johnson and Mark Buehrle. Four are in the Hall of Fame (Young, Joss, Bunning and Koufax). One certainly will be (Johnson). That leaves Buerhle. He should join them in the Hall.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Boondock Saint View Post
I'm not saying this as a case for Buehrle's inclusion, but unless the voters alter their criterion for what constitutes a HoF career, there won't be any more HoF pitchers. The game has changed, and the way the voters view stats needs to change with it.
Could not agree more. Pitchers, like Buehrle, who have excelled in a hitters' era with steroids, small ballparks, juiced balls, etc. shouldn't be punished because their statistics look different than those of pitchers from other eras.

Compare Buehrle to his contemporaries. He is a Hall of Famer.
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  #84  
Old 09-18-2014, 01:22 PM
amsteel amsteel is offline
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Originally Posted by cards press box View Post
Compare Buehrle to his contemporaries. He is a Hall of Famer.
OK, out of BB/9, K/9, ERA, and FIP he's only in the top 25% of pitchers since 2000 in BB/9. All of the guys above him and wins and WAR did so in fewer games.

The average WAR/Start for that period is 0.22, MB's is 0.11.

His counting stats are great, but that just means he belongs in Conditioning and Fitness HOF.
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  #85  
Old 09-18-2014, 02:40 PM
kittle42 kittle42 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by amsteel View Post
OK, out of BB/9, K/9, ERA, and FIP he's only in the top 25% of pitchers since 2000 in BB/9. All of the guys above him and wins and WAR did so in fewer games.

The average WAR/Start for that period is 0.22, MB's is 0.11.

His counting stats are great, but that just means he belongs in Conditioning and Fitness HOF.
Amen. Put another cap on him for most of his career, and no one here is advocating seriously for HOF inclusion.
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  #86  
Old 09-18-2014, 03:28 PM
Golden Sox Golden Sox is offline
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Everything I have read and heard is that Toronto wants to move MB in the offseason. His $19 million dollar contract is too much. I don't think anybody wants him with that contract. But if the Blue Jays pick up some/most of the contract, I think he will be moved this off season. Wouldn't it be something if he wound up back with the White Sox? We need at least 2 more starting pitchers and I would like to see him back here.

Last edited by Golden Sox; 09-18-2014 at 03:45 PM.
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  #87  
Old 09-18-2014, 06:04 PM
SBSoxFan SBSoxFan is offline
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Originally Posted by Golden Sox View Post
Everything I have read and heard is that Toronto wants to move MB in the offseason. His $19 million dollar contract is too much. I don't think anybody wants him with that contract. But if the Blue Jays pick up some/most of the contract, I think he will be moved this off season. Wouldn't it be something if he wound up back with the White Sox? We need at least 2 more starting pitchers and I would like to see him back here.
Except the Sox aren't going to want to add another lefty to their current rotation. Would you do an even swap Danks for Buehrle? Sure. I don't imagine Toronto would, however.
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  #88  
Old 09-22-2014, 12:46 PM
cards press box cards press box is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kittle42 View Post
Amen. Put another cap on him for most of his career, and no one here is advocating seriously for HOF inclusion.
I disagree. To me, Buehrle is the modern day Whitey Ford. Adjust the ERA to reflect the different eras in which they pitched and Buehrle compares very favorably to Ford. When discussing whether Buehrle should be a Hall of Famer, Harold Reynolds of the MLB Network was quite impressed with the similarity between Buehrle and Ford and stated that it made him re-evaluate whether Buehrle should be in the Hall.

Buehrle's stats are also comparable to Jim Hunter, another Hall of Famer.

And the Ford and Hunter comparisons don't even take into account the fact that Buehrle threw a no-hitter and a perfect game. A player can catch lightening in a bottle once. But twice?

I'd be advocating Buehrle for the Hall of Fame regardless of what uniform he wore or will wear.
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  #89  
Old 09-22-2014, 12:48 PM
cards press box cards press box is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PaleHoser View Post
I'm a big Mark Buehrle fan, but my HoF criteria for a pitcher is pretty simple. If you had a must-win game and could pick from any pitcher in baseball, would he be in your Top 5?
Well, in 2005, he pitched brilliantly and won the one must win game that the Sox had in the post-season -- Game 2 of the ALCS against the L.A. Angels.
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  #90  
Old 09-22-2014, 01:21 PM
SBSoxFan SBSoxFan is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chicagowhitesox1 View Post
He has a great shot of making it 14 straight 200 inning seasons.
Buehrle is at 194 IP with one more start in 2014. Gibbons has already stated that he would, within reason, let Buehrle pitch in relief in the final game of the season if necessary to reach 200 IP. Buehrle hasn't pitched in relief in the regular season since 2000.

I'm sure you could go back and find six additional innings he could have thrown in his previous 31 starts this year. It seems like Gibbons had some pretty quick hooks this season.

Anyway, here's hoping Buehrle gets to 200 IP "naturally" against Seattle on Wednesday.
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