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  #226  
Old 08-09-2013, 11:27 AM
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doublem23 doublem23 is online now
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Originally Posted by Noneck View Post
The international market is one where you may have to overpay. You have to be willing to lay out some big money for only a possibility of return. This is for totally unproven players and the Sox dont do this, they avoided these kind of players in the draft before and I dont see them changing their mindset.
Well the new international spending limits set by the CBA should work to our favor in that regard.

But to say the Sox have simply been "cheap" is not entirely accurate, they had their head of Latin American scouting and his scouts taking kickbacks from contracts they signed on players they knew probably weren't going to pan out in America. That's the kind of scandal that takes years to recover from, especially given in Latin America, kids are signed when they're still teenagers. Given that Wilder was in charge of Latin America from 2004-2008 (I believe), the kids he would have been scouting would have been 21-25 today... Basically should be entering the upper levels of the organization. The move to hire Marco Paddy away from Toronto and the subsequent signings the Sox have made since then are a move in the right direction, but in international scouting, much moreso than in the Draft, it takes a lot of patience to see if the fruits of that operation.
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  #227  
Old 08-09-2013, 11:28 AM
DSpivack DSpivack is offline
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Lots of good logic here, all leading to different conclusions. No one here thinks he's worth his money, that's a fact. They have Garcia waiting for a chance, that's a fact. Expecting to get a valuable prospect for a player that's not worth the money he's making would seem to be unreasonable.

Some of his "Five Tools" have eroded to mediocrity and we're guilty of overvaluing him. Since he's blocking Garcia, what's the harm in letting him go, whether the savings wind up in player development or in management's pocket?
Because even with Rios, the 2014 committed payroll right now is $59 million (with arb players and options, that would mean a payroll of around $75 million). Letting Rios and his contract depart does not make signing international players any easier, especially with the tougher signing standards under the new CBA; the way to sign more international players now is via trading for those slots, not in cutting veterans to save payroll dollars.

Unlike Adam Dunn, I do not think Rios is terribly overpaid, given his production in RF and in comparison to the other RFs in MLB. Letting him go would be dumping an asset that still has some value for nothing. Simply because a player is unlikable for a number of reasons, or that the fanbase has little respect for a player for valid reasons, does not mean the most prudent decision is that letting that asset walk and receiving nothing in return.
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  #228  
Old 08-09-2013, 11:29 AM
Noneck Noneck is online now
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Originally Posted by slavko View Post

Since he's blocking Garcia, what's the harm in letting him go, whether the savings wind up in player development or in management's pocket?

I might have missed something here but how is he blocking Garcia? Outfield of DeAza, Rios, Garcia. DH/1B Dunn, Viciedo. Paulie is through, he can fill in at DH and 1st for rest of year. Next year who knows but even if Rios is still around , he doesnt have to block Garcia.
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  #229  
Old 08-09-2013, 11:31 AM
DSpivack DSpivack is offline
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Originally Posted by Noneck View Post
I might have missed something here but how is he blocking Garcia? Outfield of DeAza, Rios, Garcia. DH/1B Dunn, Viciedo. Paulie is through, he can fill in at DH and 1st for rest of year. Next year who knows but even if Rios is still around , he doesnt have to block Garcia.
Garcia has been playing CF in Charlotte, right? Barring an offseason trade of Rios (which would not be a surprise), a 2014 OF of De Aza in LF, Garcia in CF, and Rios in RF would not be a shock.
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  #230  
Old 08-09-2013, 11:35 AM
dickallen15 dickallen15 is offline
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Originally Posted by DSpivack View Post
Because even with Rios, the 2014 committed payroll right now is $59 million (with arb players and options, that would mean a payroll of around $75 million). Letting Rios and his contract depart does not make signing international players any easier, especially with the tougher signing standards under the new CBA; the way to sign more international players now is via trading for those slots, not in cutting veterans to save payroll dollars.

Unlike Adam Dunn, I do not think Rios is terribly overpaid, given his production in RF and in comparison to the other RFs in MLB. Letting him go would be dumping an asset that still has some value for nothing. Simply because a player is unlikable for a number of reasons, or that the fanbase has little respect for a player for valid reasons, does not mean the most prudent decision is that letting that asset walk and receiving nothing in return.
You mention his value, unfortunately other teams don't feel the same way. Unless the Sox can get a significant prospect back for him this winter, what kind of business sense does it make to pay him $4 million the rest of this season to jog around the field in meaningless games? And what sort of indication has there ever been that a team would give up one of ther better prospects for him? I don't see why acquiring a guy who will top out in AA or AAA is so important. There is a replacement. Use Rios' money on other areas.
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  #231  
Old 08-09-2013, 11:35 AM
russ99 russ99 is offline
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Originally Posted by PalehosePlanet View Post
Keep in mind though that the rules have changed regarding signing young international players. There is a draft now. It is no longer a free-for-all like the old days.

Don't get me wrong, it's good to have international scouts/personnel always on the search for talent. But the days where a Dodgers scout would hop from town to town and scoop up 15-20 sixteen year old kids while the rest of MLB was completely oblivious are long gone.
It's not an international draft yet, it's a hard slotting system with teams able to trade international slots.

And the Sox signed BBA's #9 ranked international player in Micker Zapata.

The real question when it comes to the amateur draft.

Will we draft players based on talent or with signability as in the past. How far will we go over slot to sign prospects? Will we be creative to maximize the players signed, like the Astros have done the last two drafts?
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  #232  
Old 08-09-2013, 11:37 AM
Fastball23 Fastball23 is offline
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The past trading deadline was a huge disappointment. I hope that we can trade Rios, Dunn, Alexei, DeAza and Lindstrom.

The Sox need to add key pieces for next season. Garcia was a great start but this teams needs a starting C, 1B, SS, 3B, LF, CF, and some major bullpen help.
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  #233  
Old 08-09-2013, 11:39 AM
Noneck Noneck is online now
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Originally Posted by doublem23 View Post
Well the new international spending limits set by the CBA should work to our favor in that regard.

But to say the Sox have simply been "cheap" is not entirely accurate, they had their head of Latin American scouting and his scouts taking kickbacks from contracts they signed on players they knew probably weren't going to pan out in America. That's the kind of scandal that takes years to recover from, especially given in Latin America, kids are signed when they're still teenagers. Given that Wilder was in charge of Latin America from 2004-2008 (I believe), the kids he would have been scouting would have been 21-25 today... Basically should be entering the upper levels of the organization. The move to hire Marco Paddy away from Toronto and the subsequent signings the Sox have made since then are a move in the right direction, but in international scouting, much moreso than in the Draft, it takes a lot of patience to see if the fruits of that operation.

I'm really not that familiar with the new cba international spending limits and I do realize Wilder scandal set the Sox back. I hope they are working hard on this but I know it will take a lot of resources to make this work and getting a guy like Paddy is at least a start.

But as I think about this Buddy Bell was a start for the minor league turn around also.

Last edited by Noneck; 08-09-2013 at 11:52 AM.
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  #234  
Old 08-09-2013, 11:42 AM
Noneck Noneck is online now
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Originally Posted by DSpivack View Post
Garcia has been playing CF in Charlotte, right? Barring an offseason trade of Rios (which would not be a surprise), a 2014 OF of De Aza in LF, Garcia in CF, and Rios in RF would not be a shock.

Yea hes been playing center but even if they put Garcia in right and shift Rios to center or left, Rios isnt keeping Garcia off the field.
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  #235  
Old 08-09-2013, 11:43 AM
DSpivack DSpivack is offline
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Originally Posted by dickallen15 View Post
You mention his value, unfortunately other teams don't feel the same way. Unless the Sox can get a significant prospect back for him this winter, what kind of business sense does it make to pay him $4 million the rest of this season to jog around the field in meaningless games? And what sort of indication has there ever been that a team would give up one of ther better prospects for him? I don't see why acquiring a guy who will top out in AA or AAA is so important. There is a replacement. Use Rios' money on other areas.
What makes you think that? If no other team felt the same way, he would have cleared waivers. Right now, they can deal him only to Texas. Why not hold on to him and see what you can get in the offseason? What's the rush to trade him now? In the offseason, there will be many more potential trading partners. And if no one wants to pay what the White Sox want in return, I'd be fine keeping one of the better RFs in MLB in 2014.
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  #236  
Old 08-09-2013, 11:45 AM
Fastball23 Fastball23 is offline
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Question: If Rios gets badly injured today, can the Sox let Rios go to Texas or does he have to be pulled back?
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  #237  
Old 08-09-2013, 11:47 AM
dickallen15 dickallen15 is offline
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Originally Posted by DSpivack View Post
What makes you think that? If no other team felt the same way, he would have cleared waivers. Right now, they can deal him only to Texas. Why not hold on to him and see what you can get in the offseason? What's the rush to trade him now? In the offseason, there will be many more potential trading partners. And if no one wants to pay what the White Sox want in return, I'd be fine keeping one of the better RFs in MLB in 2014.
They tried to trade him before the deadline. Numerous stories said the Sox were dissappointed with the offers. One report said all they were offered was organizational filler. Now the team that claimed him needs a bat and an OF badly, yet they don't want to give up anything of significance for him.
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  #238  
Old 08-09-2013, 11:47 AM
Noneck Noneck is online now
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Originally Posted by Fastball23 View Post
Question: If Rios gets badly injured today, can the Sox let Rios go to Texas or does he have to be pulled back?

I believe he still has to pass a physical.
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  #239  
Old 08-09-2013, 11:51 AM
DeadMoney DeadMoney is offline
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I think everyone is missing the boat here... $13.5 million available for the Sox can go towards getting one bad-ass scoreboard installed by next year!
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  #240  
Old 08-09-2013, 11:51 AM
dickallen15 dickallen15 is offline
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Originally Posted by Noneck View Post
I believe he still has to pass a physical.
If the waiver period hasn't expired, I think they could let him go, but doing so without the claimimg team's consent probably isn't worth it in the long run.
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