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  #166  
Old 04-12-2013, 09:11 PM
blandman blandman is offline
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Originally Posted by voodoochile View Post
No and now you are misrepresenting what the article said.

I'll skip the whole part about where the pitch actually was (outside their area of "scientific comparison") and focus on your comment only. It does hit people. It just doesn't hit them on average as often as it hit's TCQ. You'd have to run a sample of people who players with similar stances to TCQ to really see what it means. You'd also have to then actually talk about the region in question (1.5-2.0 feet off the zone). Finally you'd need to factor in batting mechanics. Some players step more toward the plate than others when they swing.

In comparison to every player who has ever played TCQ gets smacked by a lot of pitches that others don't. This is some kind of serious scientific analysis?
However you as a batter act at the plate is inconsequential to the pitcher, who has the same zone every at bat. You pitch the plate, not the stance.
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  #167  
Old 04-12-2013, 09:12 PM
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Originally Posted by blandman View Post
What trash talk?

Greinke: I didn't say anything
Quentin: I didn't hear what he said

What trash talk? Even if he did trash talk (and saying What? is more like, why are you walking at me with a bat than anything), trash talk is irrelevant because 1.) Quentin didn't care what he said, obviously and 2.) no amount of trash talk is a legitimate reason for assaulting someone. People go to jail for that.
Dude, I read lips. He said, "WHAT?!?!?" as in sarcastically. I don't care if you believe me or not. It's as much a fact to me as it would be to you if you were standing 2 feet away from Greinke and could hear him.

Yep people go to jail for assaulting strangers who have done nothing to them. Other people get no punishment at all after being hit with a projectile and then challenged by the person who threw it.

Here's the simple facts one more time...

Quentin shouldn't have charged.

Greinke shouldn't have challenged him to charge.

Greinke shouldn't have led with his shoulder.

You have turned those facts into another crusade...
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  #168  
Old 04-12-2013, 09:13 PM
RKMeibalane RKMeibalane is offline
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I think he's trying to make up a story either way.
So now he's just lying about all of it? To what end? Even if I were to accept your assertions that he was planning to attack and injure Greinke all along, what would be the point of lying about it other than trying to keep himself out of trouble? I don't understand the point you're trying to make here?
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  #169  
Old 04-12-2013, 09:14 PM
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I still say Greinke was a dumbass for lowering his shoulder to absorb Quentin, when he should've started backing up or avoiding him. So instead of avoiding the contact, I guess he decided to prove how much of a bad ass he was by trying to take him on. Worked out well.

And I love the "Quentin is a thug" comment. The man has rushed the mound for the first time after getting hit over 100 times. Screams thug to me!
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  #170  
Old 04-12-2013, 09:15 PM
RKMeibalane RKMeibalane is offline
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However you as a batter act at the plate is inconsequential to the pitcher, who has the same zone every at bat. You pitch the plate, not the stance.
I'm not a pitcher, but I'm not sure about that. Are you suggesting that a pitcher will pitch the same way to Brent Morel as he will to Ryan Howard because the strike zone is the same? I'm not sure I buy that, as they are completely different hitters. By your logic, scouting reports are meaningless, because the strike zone never changes.
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  #171  
Old 04-12-2013, 09:16 PM
blandman blandman is offline
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Originally Posted by voodoochile View Post
Dude, I read lips. He said, "WHAT?!?!?" as in sarcastically. I don't care if you believe me or not. It's as much a fact to me as it would be to you if you were standing 2 feet away from Greinke and could hear him.

Yep people go to jail for assaulting strangers who have done nothing to them. Other people get no punishment at all after being hit with a projectile and then challenged by the person who threw it.

Here's the simple facts one more time...

Quentin shouldn't have charged.

Greinke shouldn't have challenged him to charge.

Greinke shouldn't have led with his shoulder.

You have turned those facts into another crusade...
Quentin shouldn't have charged. It ends at that. That was the violent act, and the only one.

Greinke didn't challenge him to charge. There wasn't enough time for that. Saying "what" in any way isn't saying "come attack me". And Quentin didn't hear it anyway, so it's completely inconsequential.

Shouldn't have led with his shoulder? Right...Just like you shouldn't lead with your face when someone punches you. He was being attacked. You react how you react to lessen the blow.
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  #172  
Old 04-12-2013, 09:18 PM
blandman blandman is offline
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I'm not a pitcher, but I'm not sure about that. Are you suggesting that a pitcher will pitch the same way to Brent Morel as he will to Ryan Howard because the strike zone is the same? I'm not sure I buy that, as they are completely different hitters. By your logic, scouting reports are meaningless, because the strike zone never changes.
It's the same strike zone in and out. He's gonna throw that riding in fastball to every right handed hitter because it's what you do to jam them. It's the same location for every hitter because he practices throwing it there.
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  #173  
Old 04-12-2013, 09:18 PM
WhiteSox5187 WhiteSox5187 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by voodoochile View Post
Dude, I read lips. He said, "WHAT?!?!?" as in sarcastically. I don't care if you believe me or not. It's as much a fact to me as it would be to you if you were standing 2 feet away from Greinke and could hear him.

Yep people go to jail for assaulting strangers who have done nothing to them. Other people get no punishment at all after being hit with a projectile and then challenged by the person who threw it.

Here's the simple facts one more time...

Quentin shouldn't have charged.

Greinke shouldn't have challenged him to charge.

Greinke shouldn't have led with his shoulder.

You have turned those facts into another crusade...
How can you tell that? There is only one angle where you can even vaguely see Greinke's lips and that is after Greinke has thrown down his glove and is actively "bracing," for lack of a better term, for Quentin. As Quentin puts his head down and charges he says something to Greinke, Greinke then throws down his glove and says something back and they hit each other.

Initially though Quentin starts walking towards the mound and says something, Greinke sees or hears this, steps towards Quentin and says something and slightly raises his head. His shoulders do not move upwards which would suggest he is not shouting anything. Quentin then says something and runs towards the mound, Greinke throws down his glove and says something and they rumble.
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  #174  
Old 04-12-2013, 09:18 PM
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Originally Posted by blandman View Post
Shouldn't have led with his shoulder? Right...Just like you shouldn't lead with your face when someone punches you. He was being attacked. You react how you react to lessen the blow.
He could've easily avoided that confrontation by running away. You say he was being attacked. Quentin hadn't even gotten to the mound yet. I could see your point if Greinke was getting jumped from behind and didn't see it coming. Instead, what did he do? He stood there, watched him come towards him, dropped his glove, lowered his shoulder, and absorbed the hit.So like you said Quentin hit himself with that pitch...Greinke hit himself with Quentin's shoulder.
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  #175  
Old 04-12-2013, 09:21 PM
RKMeibalane RKMeibalane is offline
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Originally Posted by blandman View Post
Quentin shouldn't have charged. It ends at that. That was the violent act, and the only one.

Greinke didn't challenge him to charge. There wasn't enough time for that. Saying "what" in any way isn't saying "come attack me". And Quentin didn't hear it anyway, so it's completely inconsequential.

Shouldn't have led with his shoulder? Right...Just like you shouldn't lead with your face when someone punches you. He was being attacked. You react how you react to lessen the blow.
He shouldn't have led with his shoulder, as has already been pointed out. Trauma to the shoulder, either via a fall or a direct impact represents one of the two most common mechanisms of clavicular injury. Although I doubt that Greinke knew this before he got hurt, that doesn't erase his mistake.
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  #176  
Old 04-12-2013, 09:21 PM
blandman blandman is offline
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He could've easily avoided that confrontation by running away. You say he was being attacked. Quentin hadn't even gotten to the mound yet. I could see your point if Greinke was getting jumped from behind and didn't see it coming. Instead, what did he do? He stood there, dropped his glove, lowered his shoulder, and absorbed the hit.
Blaming a victim because they didn't think to run is ridiculous. That's like blaming your parked car for getting rear-ended.
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  #177  
Old 04-12-2013, 09:21 PM
central44 central44 is offline
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I don't buy for a second that Quentin didn't know what Grienke said. I just don't think he wanted to share it with the press.

Incidents like this happen so often in baseball and this is being blown way out of proportion. It doesn't matter if it would happen in the real world, the bottom line is that a baseball traveling 90+ miles is dangerous. If you suspect a guy threw one of those at you on purpose, you're going to be filled with raw anger and adrenaline. Based on their history and the fact that a Dodger was hit earlier in the game, it's not inconcievable that it could have been intentional, and odds are that was Quentin's first reaction.

Three seconds is not enough time to calm down and let cooler heads prevail, and in the meantime Grienke clearly taunted Quentin--while he was probably livid and pissed off and suspecting it was probably intentional.

Look, everyone knows Grienke is an *******. Every time the Sox would play KC, these gamethreads would be full of "**** you Grienke!" comments each time one of our players had to dive to the ground to avoid a fastball coming at his head--which was quite often. So let's not pretend that Grienke doesn't have a track record, or a history here. He hit Quentin twice before this.

Does that mean that what Quentin did was okay? No. He shouldn't have charged the mound. But Grienke is *hardly* the victim in this. You play with fire and you get burned. He had no reason to taunt Quentin if he didn't intentionally try to hit him. He had no reason to further provoke a guy who was clearly already shaked up and pissed off. And if he hadn't been a dumbass and lowered his shoulder when Quentin charged him, he wouldn't have hurt himself, and this is a non-story like every other time this happens.

The whole thing is so ****ing stupid. 95 mph fastballs up and in do not generally lead to rational outcomes, so it's pointless to come up with a rational explanation for any of it. It was two stupid people being stupid at the same time.

Last edited by central44; 04-12-2013 at 09:27 PM.
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  #178  
Old 04-12-2013, 09:22 PM
blandman blandman is offline
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Originally Posted by RKMeibalane View Post
He shouldn't have led with his shoulder, as has already been pointed out. Trauma to the shoulder, either via a fall or a direct impact represents one of the two most common mechanisms of clavicular injury. Although I doubt that Greinke knew this before he got hurt, that doesn't erase his mistake.
Put yourself in his shoes. How would you have braced for that blow?

It's instinctive. It protects your head and spine.
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  #179  
Old 04-12-2013, 09:22 PM
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voodoochile voodoochile is offline
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Originally Posted by WhiteSox5187 View Post
How can you tell that? There is only one angle where you can even vaguely see Greinke's lips and that is after Greinke has thrown down his glove and is actively "bracing," for lack of a better term, for Quentin. As Quentin puts his head down and charges he says something to Greinke, Greinke then throws down his glove and says something back and they hit each other.

Initially though Quentin starts walking towards the mound and says something, Greinke sees or hears this, steps towards Quentin and says something and slightly raises his head. His shoulders do not move upwards which would suggest he is not shouting anything. Quentin then says something and runs towards the mound, Greinke throws down his glove and says something and they rumble.
I've seen the behind the plate video of this also. I don't know where and I'm trying to find it. I can see Greinke's mouth and it's after that mouth moves and says, "what?!?!?" that Quentin charges.
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  #180  
Old 04-12-2013, 09:23 PM
RKMeibalane RKMeibalane is offline
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It's the same strike zone in and out. He's gonna throw that riding in fastball to every right handed hitter because it's what you do to jam them. It's the same location for every hitter because he practices throwing it there.
Fine, but that doesn't mean that Quentin allowed himself to be hit by a pitch so he could carry out some sort of premeditated attack. What are you trying to prove here?
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