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  #46  
Old 02-13-2013, 11:20 PM
CoopaLoop CoopaLoop is offline
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Originally Posted by Thome25 View Post
All of the explanation that you need is in the post that you quoted.
I am never going to pretend that I know what a Native American is thinking about mascots being used in sports. As a white man, I have no idea.

But I am damn sure I am never going to say THEY SHOULD BE HONORED by it. The arrogance and ignorance in that statement is overwhelming.
  #47  
Old 02-14-2013, 07:55 AM
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doublem23 doublem23 is offline
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Originally Posted by Thome25 View Post
Some teams named themselves after native Americans because they epitomize bravery, honor, and were fierce warriors and that's what they wanted their sports team to represent.
I don't doubt there is some or a lot of truth to this statement. I'm sure back in the 1920s people maybe did feel like they were honoring Native Americans by naming their teams after them, but times change. At the same time it was OK to name your high school the Redskins, it was probably OK to call an African-American man on the street a "Negro." Things change, the path of human history is always moving toward being more accepting and more respectful towards other people.

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Does PETA get involved next and say that teams named after animals must go?
The fact that you just compared Native Americans to bears, birds, or rodents really underscores the argument against your case.

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Originally Posted by Thome25 View Post
Do the opinions of the few outweigh the opinions of the many?
That is such a god damn cop out. Sometimes, people want certain things done simply because they're right. Do you think the majority of baseball players, fans, or owners wanted Jackie Robinson to break the color barrier in 1947? Do you think he was welcomed with open arms at every opposing city? No, he was hated, by white folks who felt he was destroying the "tradition" of their pure game.

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If done tastefully and respectfully (Blackhawks, Illini, Warriors, Seminoles, Chiefs, Braves etc. etc. etc.) and NOT in a racist way (Chief Wahoo logo and Redskins name) then I don't see the problem and IMO those against it look more like whiners than people standing up for an injustice.
I think it's an awfully slippery slope to start saying Team A, B, and C are honoring Native Americans in a tasteful manner but Team X, Y, and Z are being totally racist. It doesn't seem to hurt that the teams you root for are all "tasteful," either.
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Last edited by doublem23; 02-14-2013 at 09:04 AM.
  #48  
Old 02-14-2013, 09:10 AM
SephClone89 SephClone89 is offline
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Thanks for this thread--I've been teaching about things like Native American assimilation attempts in mission schools in the late 19th century, etc...so I'm havin ga discussion in my American History class on this issue, based around the Paul Lukas article.
  #49  
Old 02-14-2013, 12:04 PM
Thome25 Thome25 is offline
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Originally Posted by CoopaLoop View Post
I am never going to pretend that I know what a Native American is thinking about mascots being used in sports. As a white man, I have no idea.

But I am damn sure I am never going to say THEY SHOULD BE HONORED by it. The arrogance and ignorance in that statement is overwhelming.
I'm sorry that you feel that way. Nevermind pure logic. Nevermind that most Native Americans themselves are more than fine with the use of their imagery.

You think I'm wrong and I think you're wrong so lets just agree to disagree.
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  #50  
Old 02-14-2013, 12:07 PM
Thome25 Thome25 is offline
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Originally Posted by doublem23 View Post
I don't doubt there is some or a lot of truth to this statement. I'm sure back in the 1920s people maybe did feel like they were honoring Native Americans by naming their teams after them, but times change. At the same time it was OK to name your high school the Redskins, it was probably OK to call an African-American man on the street a "Negro." Things change, the path of human history is always moving toward being more accepting and more respectful towards other people.



The fact that you just compared Native Americans to bears, birds, or rodents really underscores the argument against your case.



That is such a god damn cop out. Sometimes, people want certain things done simply because they're right. Do you think the majority of baseball players, fans, or owners wanted Jackie Robinson to break the color barrier in 1947? Do you think he was welcomed with open arms at every opposing city? No, he was hated, by white folks who felt he was destroying the "tradition" of their pure game.



I think it's an awfully slippery slope to start saying Team A, B, and C are honoring Native Americans in a tasteful manner but Team X, Y, and Z are being totally racist. It doesn't seem to hurt that the teams you root for are all "tasteful," either.
I'm not going to touch this with a ten foot pole.

I'll end with the fact that I have already stated my opinions on this matter several times in this thread. No point in going around in circles with it.

I'll also say that I respect your opinion on this matter as well as the opinions of my fellow boardmembers in this thread.
  #51  
Old 02-14-2013, 12:09 PM
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Originally Posted by Thome25 View Post
I'm sorry that you feel that way. Nevermind pure logic. Nevermind that most Native Americans themselves are more than fine with the use of their imagery.

You think I'm wrong and I think you're wrong so lets just agree to disagree.
That notion is disputed by some Native Americans.
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  #52  
Old 02-14-2013, 12:28 PM
RKMeibalane RKMeibalane is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CoopaLoop View Post
I am never going to pretend that I know what a Native American is thinking about mascots being used in sports. As a white man, I have no idea.

But I am damn sure I am never going to say THEY SHOULD BE HONORED by it. The arrogance and ignorance in that statement is overwhelming.
I completely agree with this. It's never appropriate for someone who isn't part of a particular group to speak for that group as though the people in it can't speak for themselves.
  #53  
Old 02-14-2013, 12:37 PM
RKMeibalane RKMeibalane is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Thome25 View Post
I'm sorry that you feel that way. Nevermind pure logic. Nevermind that most Native Americans themselves are more than fine with the use of their imagery.

You think I'm wrong and I think you're wrong so lets just agree to disagree.
Are you Native American? Do you have some sort of special insight into how people of this group think, act, or feel?
  #54  
Old 02-14-2013, 12:54 PM
DSpivack DSpivack is online now
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I completely agree with this. It's never appropriate for someone who isn't part of a particular group to speak for that group as though the people in it can't speak for themselves.
I don't know about that, I speak for doctors in Madison, Wisconsin and say that they should never utter the phrase "M.Jeff" again.
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  #55  
Old 02-14-2013, 12:56 PM
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Nevermind that most Native Americans themselves are more than fine with the use of their imagery.
Do you have anything that supports this?
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  #56  
Old 02-14-2013, 01:08 PM
WhiteSox5187 WhiteSox5187 is offline
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Originally Posted by spawn View Post
Do you have anything that supports this?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Native_...pinion_Surveys

Stunningly according to that section a 2004 poll of 768 Native Americans found that 91% of them found the name "Redskins" acceptable.

They also cite a "near total disconnect" between Native American activists and the general Native American population.
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  #57  
Old 02-14-2013, 01:17 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Thome25 View Post
I'm sorry that you feel that way. Nevermind pure logic. Nevermind that most Native Americans themselves are more than fine with the use of their imagery.

You think I'm wrong and I think you're wrong so lets just agree to disagree.
Quote:
Originally Posted by asindc View Post
That notion is disputed by some Native Americans.
Quote:
Originally Posted by spawn View Post
Do you have anything that supports this?
Quote:
Originally Posted by WhiteSox5187 View Post
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Native_...pinion_Surveys

Stunningly according to that section a 2004 poll of 768 Native Americans found that 91% of them found the name "Redskins" acceptable.

They also cite a "near total disconnect" between Native American activists and the general Native American population.
That same article cites to a 2001 poll in which 81% of Native Americans polled found the use of Native American images and names for sports teams to be offensive. Thus, there seems to be continued dispute on this issue.
  #58  
Old 02-14-2013, 01:26 PM
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Ok, if this discussion is to continue, it needs to be done over a PI. We've long ago crossed into a political discussion.
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