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  #16  
Old 10-05-2012, 08:37 AM
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Originally Posted by amsteel View Post
Like others, I'm interested in how Viciedo's arbitration goes since he's the only one on that list with any real leverage. I certainly hope they keep him.
What leverage does he have that the others don't?
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  #17  
Old 10-05-2012, 09:26 AM
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Also, if there is some payroll room next year, it would behoove the Sox to get Sale locked up.

With another quality year, he could be looking at a huge increase in his first arbitration year next offseason.
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  #18  
Old 10-05-2012, 10:17 AM
KenBerryGrab KenBerryGrab is offline
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Floyd's option is pretty reasonable, actually, if you look at what starters are paid.
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  #19  
Old 10-05-2012, 10:32 AM
amsteel amsteel is online now
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Originally Posted by doublem23 View Post
What leverage does he have that the others don't?
He's the only one of the 5 that potentially has some unrealized potential, at this point I think we all know who Olmedo, Beckham, Humber and DeAza are.

Viciedo would appear to have some room for growth, whether he does that or not, who knows, but I'm sure they'll use his young age and 'potential' as a bargaining chip.
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  #20  
Old 10-05-2012, 10:39 AM
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Originally Posted by DSpivack View Post
The Sox can't afford to rebuild and give up on a season or two as other teams can.
People keep saying this, but that's what they avoided doing this year and attendance still declined, including the pathetic September showing when the team was in first damn place!
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  #21  
Old 10-05-2012, 10:46 AM
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Originally Posted by kittle42 View Post
People keep saying this, but that's what they avoided doing this year and attendance still declined, including the pathetic September showing when the team was in first damn place!
Right... So, how does that counter his point? Sox fans can't be bothered to show up for a team in 1st place, they certainly aren't willing to sit through any sort of rebuilding effort.
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  #22  
Old 10-05-2012, 10:47 AM
russ99 russ99 is offline
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Originally Posted by kittle42 View Post
People keep saying this, but that's what they avoided doing this year and attendance still declined, including the pathetic September showing when the team was in first damn place!
Well put.

They could tear down, but it looks like Rios, Ramirez and Viciedo are the only good trade chips that could bring back quality inexpensive players/prospects.

Dunn's contract, Paul's age and 10/5 rights and Danks' injury and salary the next few years would make them a tough sell, and we'd have to either eat dollars or take a bad contract in return.

Also, we gave lots of playing time to young replacement level and above players this season, so I think the Sox philosophy recently is to add a few young players in each year and let older non-core expensive players go as to not affect the gate while getting younger and cheaper over a number of years.
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  #23  
Old 10-05-2012, 10:54 AM
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Originally Posted by amsteel View Post
He's the only one of the 5 that potentially has some unrealized potential, at this point I think we all know who Olmedo, Beckham, Humber and DeAza are.
OK, I understand your point. I'm not sure I agree with how much unrealized potential affects the arbitration process since arb year contracts are doled out 1-year at a time, but I would agree that if the Sox were looking to extend any of their young players past their arb years, Viciedo probably would have more leverage than any of the other young players with the exception of Chris Sale. I know he's frustraing, but the number of 23-year-olds who will hit 25 HR in their first full season in the Majors is pretty limited.
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  #24  
Old 10-05-2012, 11:34 AM
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Originally Posted by doublem23 View Post
Right... So, how does that counter his point? Sox fans can't be bothered to show up for a team in 1st place, they certainly aren't willing to sit through any sort of rebuilding effort.
I can't predict what the fanbase does when the team is in first - I really can't predict what they'll do if they're in last.
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  #25  
Old 10-05-2012, 11:55 AM
russ99 russ99 is offline
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Originally Posted by doublem23 View Post
OK, I understand your point. I'm not sure I agree with how much unrealized potential affects the arbitration process since arb year contracts are doled out 1-year at a time, but I would agree that if the Sox were looking to extend any of their young players past their arb years, Viciedo probably would have more leverage than any of the other young players with the exception of Chris Sale. I know he's frustraing, but the number of 23-year-olds who will hit 25 HR in their first full season in the Majors is pretty limited.
Which is why IMO Rick Hahn should at least look into trading him now for a spectacular return and financial flexibility while he still has that potential.

I know no player is alike, even Cuban players, but look at Alexei. He's been here 5 full seasons, and while he has a bit more patience and gets into slightly better counts now than earlier, he's still the same free swinger and hacker at pitches outside the zone as he was as a rookie.

Also, Alexei's power numbers looked really good to us the first few years too, and have since declined since then due to pitchers knowing how to get him out.

Bottom line, IMO, we really can't expect massive improvement from Viciedo. Could he be a .240-270 hitter with 30 HRs and 100 RBIs in a few years, yes. But with the poor approach, given away at-bats and borderline awful situational hitting that that comes with it, can we really rely on him to hold down cleanup or 5th once Paul and Rios are gone, unless we expect less from those spots than we do now?

Someone had a famous saying that you know all about a hitter after 1000 at-bats. Well Viciedo has 711 at the end of this season.
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  #26  
Old 10-05-2012, 12:13 PM
hawkjt hawkjt is offline
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Originally Posted by Brian26 View Post
Every team can stomach having one or maybe two guys grossly overpaid, but look at that list above. Brutal.

Who is grossly overpaid,based on 2012 performance,outside of the injured Danks?

Rios is probably underpaid,as the best all around rightfielder in the league this year.
Dunn at DH? Probably the most productive DH in the league,by far.

PK? ....maybe, but his first two months before injury carried the team...and he still hit .300,despite concussion,wrist injury,back injury ect.

I think when a team is in first place for 117 days, and finish 3 games back,they had to have performances that are worth good salaries.
The Tigers had a payroll that was probably 40 million higher for 3 more wins....did they get value?
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  #27  
Old 10-05-2012, 12:24 PM
KyWhiSoxFan KyWhiSoxFan is offline
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Originally Posted by russ99 View Post
Which is why IMO Rick Hahn should at least look into trading him now for a spectacular return and financial flexibility while he still has that potential.

I know no player is alike, even Cuban players, but look at Alexei. He's been here 5 full seasons, and while he has a bit more patience and gets into slightly better counts now than earlier, he's still the same free swinger and hacker at pitches outside the zone as he was as a rookie.

Also, Alexei's power numbers looked really good to us the first few years too, and have since declined since then due to pitchers knowing how to get him out.

Bottom line, IMO, we really can't expect massive improvement from Viciedo. Could he be a .240-270 hitter with 30 HRs and 100 RBIs in a few years, yes. But with the poor approach, given away at-bats and borderline awful situational hitting that that comes with it, can we really rely on him to hold down cleanup or 5th once Paul and Rios are gone, unless we expect less from those spots than we do now?

Someone had a famous saying that you know all about a hitter after 1000 at-bats. Well Viciedo has 711 at the end of this season.
I don't think you gain any financial flexibility in trading Viciedo. Let's say he gets $6million--and you're freeing up $4million from this year--that does not gain you much out of a total of $100m payroll. The big boosts would be in somehow trading Danks or Dunn.

But I do agree with you on Ramirez. He has not improved at the plate (despite having the most? RBIs or a SS this year). I would rather have Viciedo at $6m than Ramirez at $7m. Trade Ramirez when you can get something pretty good for him (like a 3B, C, or outfielder). He's not going to get any better, while Viciedo has a chance to get better. (Especially if he stopped trying to hit every pitch 600 feet.)

Bring in a good fielding SS that can do the little things at the plate and use the Ramirez money on someone else.
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  #28  
Old 10-08-2012, 03:48 PM
palehozenychicty palehozenychicty is offline
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Originally Posted by doublem23 View Post
Right... So, how does that counter his point? Sox fans can't be bothered to show up for a team in 1st place, they certainly aren't willing to sit through any sort of rebuilding effort.
So we'll just be a dreary, mediocre team with flashes until the end of time. Great.
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  #29  
Old 10-08-2012, 05:58 PM
Tragg Tragg is offline
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Originally Posted by LoveYourSuit View Post
Been a huge Kenny supporter since he took the job.

But those numbers there are very close to Jim Hendry material.
Nah -no Soriano numbers on that list.
And Thornton's overpaid - way overpaid on a percentage bases (probably 40% overpaid) but still only a few million.
That's a high buyout for Myers. $3 mill for him? He won't get but $5 mill or so in the open market.
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  #30  
Old 10-09-2012, 12:38 PM
24thStFan 24thStFan is offline
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According to the USA Today 2012 MLB salaries database, the White Sox ranked 11th in total payroll. By comparison, the highest ranked club, not surprisingly the Yankees, had a payroll over 101 million dollars higher!

I've been a Sox fan for 58 years and can remember my dad telling me that the Sox would never win anything because they were "cheap." I think this perception continues even today, which may partially explain the attendance issue. I KNOW that in the recent past, the Sox have opened up the purse strings a little, but I still contend that the average fan sees the organization as "cheap."

If the Sox want to REALLY want to make a statement to the fans, spend some money and sign our own and some other big name free agents. We need to compete with the Yankees, Phillies, Red Sox, Angels, Tigers in terms of payroll.

This is Chicago, we should have a big market mentality and be able to attract big name players. It's time to put up the money and show the fans that we're not going to concede the central division to freaking Detroit.
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