To What Degree Do the White Sox Need a COMPLETE Overhaul?

[TaylorStSox]

Originally Posted by delben91

So you're assuming no offseason acquisitions of any kind?

I'm tired of using band aids to close huge gashes. It's time to tear it down IMO. The core isn't good. PK's old and had a bad second half. AJ's old, can't call a game any more and is more suited to DH. Signing a 36 year old catcher after a career year is about as dumb a move as a team can make. Beckham's a disappointment. We're losing our number 2 starter and he's not that great anyway.

The FA market isn't good to begin with. Even if we had a ton of money to spend, we aren't an attractive destination right now. Even if we did attract a couple guys, it won't be enough to win big. We'll be back to being not quite good enough to get to the playoff's and too good to get a top draft slot.

It's time for a new era. Break it up and start over. We have a new GM and a young staff that would prefer to teach.

[DoItForDanPasqua]

Some excellent points here. The most troubling is how horrible the farm system is. Aside from some good relief arms that came up, there is little hope to rebuild through that route. They also have $79 million in payroll commitments for next year, so there is not a great deal of money left to replace the players they will lose (unless JR really opens up the pocketbook).

Also, I completely agree about Farmer and DJ. I would rather, and have, listened to the visitor broadcast because I cannot bear to listen to them. I still miss John Rooney.

[mrwag]

Originally Posted by TaylorStSox

I'm tired of using band aids to close huge gashes. It's time to tear it down IMO. The core isn't good. PK's old and had a bad second half. AJ's old, can't call a game any more and is more suited to DH. Signing a 36 year old catcher after a career year is about as dumb a move as a team can make. Beckham's a disappointment. We're losing our number 2 starter and he's not that great anyway.

The FA market isn't good to begin with. Even if we had a ton of money to spend, we aren't an attractive destination right now. Even if we did attract a couple guys, it won't be enough to win big. We'll be back to being not quite good enough to get to the playoff's and too good to get a top draft slot.

It's time for a new era. Break it up and start over. We have a new GM and a young staff that would prefer to teach.

My sentiments exactly. The "core" is aging and not going to be any better next year than they were this year. It's time for a new direction and that will mean many "white flag" trades this winter, but we should have swallowed the pill and done this a couple years ago IMO.

[DoItForDanPasqua]

Originally Posted by TaylorStSox

I'm tired of using band aids to close huge gashes. It's time to tear it down IMO. The core isn't good. PK's old and had a bad second half. AJ's old, can't call a game any more and is more suited to DH. Signing a 36 year old catcher after a career year is about as dumb a move as a team can make. Beckham's a disappointment. We're losing our number 2 starter and he's not that great anyway.

The FA market isn't good to begin with. Even if we had a ton of money to spend, we aren't an attractive destination right now. Even if we did attract a couple guys, it won't be enough to win big. We'll be back to being not quite good enough to get to the playoff's and too good to get a top draft slot.

It's time for a new era. Break it up and start over. We have a new GM and a young staff that would prefer to teach.

I wish it wasn't true, but you are spot on. It's going to be long and painful process, but not as long as this September was.

[Tragg]

Originally Posted by TaylorStSox

I'm tired of using band aids to close huge gashes. It's time to tear it down IMO. The core isn't good. PK's old and had a bad second half. AJ's old, can't call a game any more and is more suited to DH. Signing a 36 year old catcher after a career year is about as dumb a move as a team can make. Beckham's a disappointment. We're losing our number 2 starter and he's not that great anyway.

We've got Sale and Danks signed for long term. That gives us a pitching core, which will keep us from being terrible. No use trading Viciedo (if he could just learn the strike zone), or Beckham (low value right now). The rest, we could trade.

[russ99]

My take:

C: Less expensive experienced FA catcher platooning with Flowers. If A.J. takes a pay cut, it could be him
1B: Konerko
2B: Time to cut bait on Beckham, deal him for something decent. Try to acquire a leadoff hitter here and move De Aza to 2nd spot where he profiles better and where a pure hitter is needed
SS: Ramirez
3B: give Morel another shot, bat 9th, add a good hitter for the bench who can backup at 3B
LF: trade Viciedo (IMO Boras is going to want $6-7M in arb) for prospects, add young good hitter with good eye at the plate who can improve into a quality corner outfielder
CF: De Aza
RF: Rios
DH: a Kenny-special inexpensive retread after Dunn is dealt for an inning eater starter with a similarly bad contract. Tori Hunter??

bench:
C: Flowers
IF: experienced platoon 3B who can step in for Morel
IF: someone who can backup SS and at least put up a decent AB
OF: decent bench power hitter
OF: decent bench average hitter


SP: Sale
SP: Danks
SP: Quintana
SP: inning eater in Dunn trade
SP: Humber/minor leaguer pushing for a spot in spring

CL: Reed
SU: Santiago
SU: Crain
MR: Veal
MR: Jones
LR: ?

Decline Thornton's and Floyd's options

[TaylorStSox]

Originally Posted by Tragg

We've got Sale and Danks signed for long term. That gives us a pitching core, which will keep us from being terrible. No use trading Viciedo (if he could just learn the strike zone), or Beckham (low value right now). The rest, we could trade.

I agree with that. The pitching, even in a rebuilding year, will be solid. Also, the drop off from dumping PK and AJ won't be as big as most people realize. Despite PK's great start, he's had a very pedestrian year. Flowers can match AJ's OBP and hit for power. He's much better defensively and I prefer the way he calls a game. Replacing Rios with one of Walker or Thompson might not be that huge of a drop off. Less hits, more K's, similar power, OBP and steals with excellent defense. I expect Dayan to take a step forward and Ramirez to have a slightly better year. Even in a rebuilding year, the situation isn't dire.

The farm is better than most will admit. There's little depth, but a few potential stars.

[DSpivack]

Originally Posted by TaylorStSox

I agree with that. The pitching, even in a rebuilding year, will be solid. Also, the drop off from dumping PK and AJ won't be as big as most people realize. Despite PK's great start, he's had a very pedestrian year. Flowers can match AJ's OBP and hit for power. He's much better defensively and I prefer the way he calls a game. Replacing Rios with one of Walker or Thompson might not be that huge of a drop off. Less hits, more K's, similar power, OBP and steals with excellent defense. I expect Dayan to take a step forward and Ramirez to have a slightly better year. Even in a rebuilding year, the situation isn't dire.

The farm is better than most will admit. There's little depth, but a few potential stars.

What makes you think he is capable of that?

And an unproven rookie in place of Rios? And you think their performance can almost match his?

[doublem23]

Originally Posted by mrwag

My sentiments exactly. The "core" is aging and not going to be any better next year than they were this year. It's time for a new direction and that will mean many "white flag" trades this winter, but we should have swallowed the pill and done this a couple years ago IMO.

Can't wait to see 10,000 people at the Cell a night

[Tragg]

Originally Posted by TaylorStSox

The farm is better than most will admit. There's little depth, but a few potential stars.

Who?
I'm okay with trading veterans, but not just for the sake of trading them, which I got the feeling happened last year in a few of these trades.

[voodoochile]

Let's see...

Argument one: There's no help in the minor leagues because ours suck.

Argument two: Our team is old and getting older with holes.

Therefore: Tear it down...

And do what? Suck for 5 years and let JR and his boys pocket all the money? Do you think they are going to sock it away into some account for "future spending"?

Sox can easily afford 90M a year salary just based on MLB revenue, gate and local revenue. They might be able to afford $110 pretty easy.

No reason to wait and hope and cry... You got Danks, Floyd, Sale, Quintana all returning. You've got Santiago, Jones, Reed and Veal.

It's not going to take that much to keep this window open another year or two which you might as well do since they've got the money to spend, sunk costs and at least some middle of the order bats as well as a solid defense.

I know people disagree with me, but I'm going to put this out there, one more time. If you argue for total rebuild, give more details. Don't just say, tear it down. What's the plan? 2-years? 5 years? What parts do you want to build around? What parts do you want to acquire and how are you going to acquire them?

Dazzle me. I'm ready to have my mind changed, but I cannot endorse an open ended empty lot of platitudes...

[doublem23]

Originally Posted by TaylorStSox

I agree with that. The pitching, even in a rebuilding year, will be solid. Also, the drop off from dumping PK and AJ won't be as big as most people realize. Despite PK's great start, he's had a very pedestrian year. Flowers can match AJ's OBP and hit for power. He's much better defensively and I prefer the way he calls a game. Replacing Rios with one of Walker or Thompson might not be that huge of a drop off. Less hits, more K's, similar power, OBP and steals with excellent defense. I expect Dayan to take a step forward and Ramirez to have a slightly better year. Even in a rebuilding year, the situation isn't dire.

The farm is better than most will admit. There's little depth, but a few potential stars.

Ha ha, step off the ledge a bit, dude. You dump Konerko, Rios, and AJ from this team and we're looking at 60-something wins. Sox had a Top 3 offense in the AL for most of this season.

[doublem23]

Originally Posted by voodoochile

I know people disagree with me, but I'm going to put this out there, one more time. If you argue for total rebuild, give more details. Don't just say, tear it down. What's the plan? 2-years? 5 years? What parts do you want to build around? What parts do you want to acquire and how are you going to acquire them?

Dazzle me. I'm ready to have my mind changed, but I cannot endorse an open ended empty lot of platitudes...

They have no real plan, it's just people being angry and ranting about nonsense. Replacing Rios with Walker or Thompson? This is borderline insanity.

Sox are still, after the full 162-game schedule plays out, going to win mid-80-something games. This is not a team that needs a major rebuild. More than anything else, what this team needs is some key contributors who can spell guys regularly, keep the older guys fresh, and not force Ventura to have to play his everyday lineup 5-6 times per week, as he was for most of the 1st half. This team needs DEPTH at the Major League level.

[TaylorStSox]

Originally Posted by DSpivack

What makes you think he is capable of that?

And an unproven rookie in place of Rios? And you think their performance can almost match his?

AJ doesn't have a great OBP. Flowers has a good eye and good power. I think he can make up for the lack of contact with patience. The improvement defensively and in pitch calling will also help. Honestly, I don't want AJ calling pitches to a young staff on a rebuilding team. He's a hot head. I don't want him showing up young pitchers.

Bringing Thompson up would definitely be rushing him and a drop off from Rios, but I prefer to shed payroll.

Obviously, I'm talking about rebuilding. I don't see this team competing with returning the aging players and adding a couple FA's.

[TaylorStSox]

Originally Posted by Tragg

Who?
I'm okay with trading veterans, but not just for the sake of trading them, which I got the feeling happened last year in a few of these trades.

Thompson, Walker, Barnum, Mitchell and Hawkins are all potential stars.