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#1
07-23-2002, 02:55 PM
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Frank Thomas and the Keltner List
Bill James created the Keltner list to judge whether or not a player belongs in the Hall. Just wondering what your answers would be.
1>Was he ever regarded as the best player in baseball? Did anybody, while he was active, ever suggest that he was the best player in baseball? Yes and no, he was in the debate of who was the better player, Ken Jr, Bonds or Him in the mid 90s. 2> Was he the best player on his team? Yes 3>Was he the best player in baseball at his position? Was he the best player in the league at his position? Yes and Yes 4> Did he have an impact on a number of pennant races? Yes, 93, 94, 97 and 00 5> Was he good enough that he could play regularly after passing his prime? In progress (maybe) 6> Is he the very best baseball player in history who is not in the Hall of Fame? NA, since he hasn't retired 7> Are most players who have comparable statistics in the Hall of Fame? Yes 8> Do the player's numbers meet Hall of Fame standards? Yes 9>Is there any evidence to suggest that the player was significantly better or worse than is suggested by his statistics? Not really 10>Is he the best player at his position who is eligible for the Hall of Fame? NA 11>How many MVP-type seasons did he have? Did he ever win an MVP award? If not, how many times was he close? 4,2,1 12> How many All-Star-type seasons did he have? How many All-Star games did he play in? Did most of the players who played in this many All-Star games go into the Hall of Fame? 8, not sure how many he attended, seems some will 13> If this man were the best player on his team, would it be likely that the team could win the pennant? Yes 14>What impact did the player have on baseball history? Was he responsible for any rule changes? Did he introduce any new equipment? Did he change the game in any way? not that I have seen 15>Did the player uphold the standards of sportsmanship and character that the Hall of Fame, in its written guidelines, instructs us to consider? Sometimes yes, sometimes no.
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"You'll get one good pitch to hit. One good pitch. That's all. Don't count on more. So you better know the strike zone. And when you get that one good pitch you better hit it and hit it hard. Remember, just one good pitch" -Ted Williams as told in The Teamates. 
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#2
07-23-2002, 03:17 PM
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I realize that hall of fame is often a "milestone game", but if yount and molitor are hall of famers then frank should be (although a couple of more good years would help). As it stands now, he wouldn't get in. But were molitor and yount ever the best players in baseball? Kirby Puckett for goodness sakes?
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#3
07-23-2002, 03:24 PM
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Sounds like a no brainer - which comes as no surprise to anyone who is paying attention. But Frank needs to put up better than average numbers through the remainder of his contract to make it absolutely certain, in large part because he has a poor image with the media and has become a DH only. If he hits about .280/year with 25-35 HRs, 90+ RBIs and an OPS over .840 or so for the next 3-4 years, he has to be a lock.
Also, I think he has had more than 4 MVP-caliber years. He has finished in the top 10 in MVP voting 8 times (including the 2 he won) and in the 6 years he didn't win it, at least 5 of those years his stats were absolutely MVP-caliber. So I'd say he has had 7 MVP caliber seasons, not 4.
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Pitcher Chuck Finley, after ex-wife Tawny Kitaen accused him in divorce court of being a heavy drinker, marijuana smoker and steroid user: "I can't believe she left out the cross-dressing.''
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#4
07-23-2002, 04:55 PM
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If he retired after this year, then yes he'd get in the first year he'd be eligible, its guarenteed. Who knows what might happen though if he plays several more years and doesn't put up good numbers.
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#5
07-23-2002, 05:05 PM
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Quote:
That could be the answer to question #14--Yes, he may be the first guy who DH'd most of his career to get serious HOF consideration.
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#6
07-23-2002, 05:09 PM
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Quote:
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#7
07-23-2002, 05:21 PM
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Keltner List...
I'll try it.
1>Was he ever regarded as the best player in baseball? Did anybody, while he was active, ever suggest that he was the best player in baseball? Probably, but as time passes people will reognize Bonds was the best player of the 90s. 2> Was he the best player on his team? Yes, for about 10 years. 3>Was he the best player in baseball at his position? Was he the best player in the league at his position? Some will argue for Bagwell, some for Big Mac. I'll take Thomas over Bagwell, but i don't know about McGwire... 4> Did he have an impact on a number of pennant races? 93, 94, 97, 2000, just like Dawg said. 5> Was he good enough that he could play regularly after passing his prime? With the DH in place, yes. 6> Is he the very best baseball player in history who is not in the Hall of Fame? No. 7> Are most players who have comparable statistics in the Hall of Fame? Yes. Through age 33, he's similar to such names as Duke Snider, Ted Williams, Joe Dimaggio, and Willie McCovey. Frank's chances for the HOF depend on his decline. His peak years are amazing. 8> Do the player's numbers meet Hall of Fame standards? If you mean 500 home runs/3000 hits, then no. All of his other numbers are superb. 9>Is there any evidence to suggest that the player was significantly better or worse than is suggested by his statistics? No. 10>Is he the best player at his position who is eligible for the Hall of Fame? McGwire is higher on the list. 11>How many MVP-type seasons did he have? Did he ever win an MVP award? If not, how many times was he close? One could make an arguement for an MVP for Thomas in 1991, although Cal was spectacular defensively. He should have been top 5 in 1992. Could've been top 5 for '95. Should have been second in '97. Could've won it in 2000. 12> How many All-Star-type seasons did he have? How many All-Star games did he play in? Did most of the players who played in this many All-Star games go into the Hall of Fame? 9 All-Star-type seasons, played in 5. No idea about the last question, although All-Star appearances are a terrible way to judge a Hall of Famer. 13> If this man were the best player on his team, would it be likely that the team could win the pennant? Yes. 14>What impact did the player have on baseball history? Was he responsible for any rule changes? Did he introduce any new equipment? Did he change the game in any way? Not really. 15>Did the player uphold the standards of sportsmanship and character that the Hall of Fame, in its written guidelines, instructs us to consider? Yes. I'd say he's a lock. Many thanks to baseball-reference.com for the stats and such.
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#8
07-23-2002, 05:59 PM
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Let's finally set the record straight for baseball and for the future of baseball please........
If we are going to have DHs in major league baseball games according to major league rules, than it is about time we get off the old stick about DHs don't belong in the game because they don't play in the field. A DH is a very important part of an AL major league team because the rule is there........ so what would you suggest because that guy don't play the field we should stick some smuck in that spot....... if you want that than we should ban the DH. Since it has been around an awful long time, and it doesn't appear to be leaving us soon, I think it is time it is recognized as a Hall of Fame position when it comes to voting and I for one have enjoyed watching the Harold Baines, Edgar Martinez, Frank Thomas, etc of the American League. Frank will be a HOF, as should be Harold Baines even though his stats were accomplished over a longer period of time. Sandy Koufax made the HOF with a very short career, be it was an outstanding career. Franks first 8 seasons were up their with the likes of Ruth and Gehrig and was often compared in their company. As far as what he does in the next few years...... it did not hurt Willie Mays, Ernie Banks, or Hank Aaron when they stuck around too long. Besides Frank will still put up some awesome numbers, you will see. Frank will be in the Hall of Fame....... not because he played a position but because he was and is one of the greatest hitters that the game has and will see. 
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#9
07-23-2002, 11:16 PM
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Once again, Keystone, you and I are in agreement. I think it's about time the HOF recognized those who DH frequently. I don't think there's anything wrong with the DH. Most people who dislike the rule are primarily National League fans. They prefer the NL rules because that's how they learned baseball.
It's not fair that Frank is criticized because he doesn't play in the field that much. I mean, nobody says anything negative about AL pitchers because they don't hit. This is yet, another example of a double-standard that exists in baseball. Stop the maddness!
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