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  #1  
Old 09-04-2011, 10:38 AM
TomBradley72 TomBradley72 is offline
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Default PLEASE Blow The Whole Thing Up!

We're now almost a full 6 seasons removed from the 2005 World Series championship season and 5 full seasons removed from our last 90 win season.

Outside of an 89 win/163 game Central Divison 1st place finish in 2008- we've been drowning in a sea of mediocre baseball despite a very healthy payroll with an overall winning percentage of .504 for the five year span of 2007-2011. Our overall attendance has been 6th out of the 14 AL teams in that time.

The organization needs an ovehaul in all areas of the franchise-
  1. Replace Ozzie Guillen- too much drama, ripping on the fans, tweeting b.s., it's draining and a distraction from what really matters- the game on the field. I think he's a decent manager overall- but 8 years is long tenure in MLB-it's time for a new voice, including the coaching staff (excluding Cooper).
  2. Replace Kenny Williams- screaming matches with his manager and batting coach relfect a lack of poise and maturity to handle the GM role. He's had some level of oversight to the minor league system for 15+ years with no evidence of the ability to develop a famr system that can consistently develop quality talent. What talent is developed has been traded for overpriced/underperforming veterans like Vazquez, Swisher, Peavy (albeit with injuries), Jackson, Pena, etc. No consistent strategy- the DH roller coaster of Thome-Kotsay-Ramirez-Dunn is exhibit #1- $20M later we're worse off than where we started with Thome.
  3. Replace Brooks Boyer- after a strong start with "Grinder Rules/Win or Die Trying"- not much to show for the past few seasons of disjointed marketing campaigns along with a very stale promotion schedule (PLEASE cancel Elvis Night, Mullett Night, Rat Pack Night, Halfway to St. Pats Day, etc. in 2012- they were interesting when they were new- now just stale and almost embarassing).
  4. Replace DJ in the radio booth- this is a major market- he's a AAA level announcer that has never been embraced by the fan base.
  5. Replace Chris Rongey as the pre/post game radio host- he brings a confrontational style to the fan base and has seemed completely out of touch with reality and/or a complete "house man" with his defense of this team, etc.- need someone with more balance- who can handle the idiot post game callers- but still handle callers questioning the managers/GM's decisions, etc.
The organization has really regressed- and is at risk of slipping into the oblivion of 1996-1999, 1987-1989 if significant changes aren't made.

The balance sheet must look horrible for this year, the worst in over a decade I would guess- I'd have to predict further erosion in the season ticket base as well as slow preseason ticket sales for 2012 as they're saddled with $51M of untradeable contracts (Dunn, Peavy, Rios, AJ) which will severely limit any player moves to energize the fan base. The Tigers have a very solid roster, the Indians are young and improving- and we're likely to be stuck going to battle next year with the sames roster as this year.

The economy is not getting any better- and White Sox fans will not invest in mediocrity-JR has to realize it's time for a significant overhaul before this franchise slips over the cliff.
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  #2  
Old 09-04-2011, 10:51 AM
captain54 captain54 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TomBradley72 View Post
The balance sheet must look horrible for this year, the worst in over a decade I would guess-.
According to Forbes, the market value of the franchise has steadily increased as well as revenues, despite an increased payroll and declining attendance. That tells me that JR is in no hurry to make major changes.

Coupled with the facts that JR won a WS series with basically the same group and his advancing years might make him less apt to surround himself with an entirely new bunch, I don't think a house cleaning is gonna happen.
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  #3  
Old 09-04-2011, 11:11 AM
Red Barchetta Red Barchetta is offline
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Originally Posted by captain54 View Post
According to Forbes, the market value of the franchise has steadily increased as well as revenues, despite an increased payroll and declining attendance. That tells me that JR is in no hurry to make major changes.

Coupled with the facts that JR won a WS series with basically the same group and his advancing years might make him less apt to surround himself with an entirely new bunch, I don't think a house cleaning is gonna happen.
The increased cost for parking, food, merchandise, etc. have all helped his bottom line. I also think they need to re-look at the premium series ticket prices, not only from the SOX perspective, but also from the MLB perspective. I feel charging more for a Yankees, Red Sox or Cubs series devalues the rest of the league. I understand what they were trying to accomplish, however it backfired.
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  #4  
Old 09-04-2011, 11:11 AM
palehozenychicty palehozenychicty is offline
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Originally Posted by captain54 View Post
According to Forbes, the market value of the franchise has steadily increased as well as revenues, despite an increased payroll and declining attendance. That tells me that JR is in no hurry to make major changes.

Coupled with the facts that JR won a WS series with basically the same group and his advancing years might make him less apt to surround himself with an entirely new bunch, I don't think a house cleaning is gonna happen.
Sadly, I don't see it happening either. The fact that Uncle Jerry wouldn't let Kenny fire Walker tells it all.
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  #5  
Old 09-04-2011, 11:22 AM
DickAllen72 DickAllen72 is offline
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While we're at it can we please get rid of Hawk already?
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  #6  
Old 09-04-2011, 11:32 AM
doublem23 doublem23 is offline
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I'd like the Sox to fire Ozzie and the on-field coaching staff. Otherwise, I'm pretty OK with stuff.
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  #7  
Old 09-04-2011, 11:35 AM
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tstrike2000 tstrike2000 is offline
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I don't think DJ's a great radio announcer, but I personally I've always liked DJ. Unless they're actually going to make the effort to get someone noticeably better, I'd keep DJ.

I like Ranger, too. The age old question is, what do you expect him to say? This is a .500 team with horrid season long slumps from two guys we absolutely needed in order to compete in this division. As a radio host, he can't come out and bash the whole organization. So, obviously, we're not going to agree with everything, or at times, a lot of things he says. This is just one of those seasons that has really worn down every Sox fan.

So, the two above situations are the least of the Sox worries. If you want to be mad at the organization, the focus is squarely on the GM and manager. Ozzie needs to go, plain and simple. If it's someone that we're tired of hearing from, it's Ozzie, not Rongey or DJ. He's a train wreck and as Sox fans, we're tired of being the bodies he's taking down with him in that wreck.
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  #8  
Old 09-04-2011, 12:17 PM
harwar harwar is offline
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The White Sox remind me of a Tennessee Williams play, with JR gathering his disfunctional family around him and dominating them like Big Daddy .. i've always liked Ozzie but this is a sad mess and it's time for him to move on .. i'm excited about some of the young talent that i've seen lately and i don't think that next year is going to be as bad as some think it is ..
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  #9  
Old 09-04-2011, 12:21 PM
guillensdisciple guillensdisciple is offline
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I think this thread is spot on. If you get rid of one piece, you have to get rid of the rest because this is a connected failure and one part missing will just lead to another one refilling and getting ruined by the others.
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  #10  
Old 09-04-2011, 12:28 PM
Tragg Tragg is offline
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Bring in a new on the field staff, bring in a new minor league development staff, kick KW upstairs. As for the announcers, Stone is a professional level announcer and, in contrast to most of yall who do listen to him everyday, I like Hawk.
Never heard DJ on the radio, so I can't say, but I have heard Farmer...
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  #11  
Old 09-04-2011, 12:35 PM
Dan H Dan H is offline
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I agree with much of Tom Bradley says except for DJ an Rongey. For some reason I like DJ. I don't listen to Rongey enough to form an opinion. Regardless, his replacement would be another company so why make the change? I do consider Rongey an articulate guy.

But the Blow the Whole Thing Up strategy has to be done with some real thought and real change. That is why both Ozzie and Williams both have to go. Both have done good things, but a change will probably help both as well as the team.

Brooks Boyer is a smart guy and I think he has done some good things, too. I just don't know if he truly understands Sox fans. I thought he did in the beginning, but I don't know now. Regardless, I think he needs to evaluate how fans have responded to marketing and promotions.

Whatever happens next season, a whole new approach has to be taken regarding everything. It has been a brutal and long season.
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  #12  
Old 09-04-2011, 12:42 PM
wassagstdu wassagstdu is offline
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Here is my diagnosis of the Sox catastrophe. Adam Dunn brought the whole team down by casting (not intentionally, of course) a negative aura that engulfed most of his teammates. He struggled at such an embarrassing level that his teammates had two options, support him or ignore him. If he had moped or been an ass, they could have pushed him aside like Swisher. Since they like him, they supported him and empathized with him. That meant that no matter what happened, practically every game was a downer. How can you feel happy and celebrate or proud of your own successes when your teammate is in such desperate distress. Was that why they did not celebrate in the dugout when AJ hit that key HR a couple of weeks ago? Some of the Sox are more susceptible to this empathetic pessimism than others. Rios is clearly one of the most susceptible. Remember what happened to him when Dye was struggling, and how he rebounded when Dye was gone?

This theory would predict that the least susceptible should be the pitchers, and that is indeed the case. On the whole they have performed well and kept the Sox around .500.

My "easy" solution: remove Dunn no matter the cost. Not to the bench, but to some other team. Replace him with Viciedo, maybe Pierre with DeAza. gradually give Flowers more playing time, and leave the rest alone (sign Buehrle). Try that for a year.

Or they could hope that Dunn's problem was lingering effects of his surgery in April and coming back too soon. If so he should bounce back next year to a level where he may not be that much help to the offense but at least his performance would remove the fog and release his teammates to be enthusiastic. But hoping is not a strategy.
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Old 09-04-2011, 12:52 PM
delben91 delben91 is offline
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Maybe it's because I don't live in the Chicago area, and so am not as subjected to the radio and ad campaign issues, but my opinion is if the product on the field is good, I could give a damn about the billboards and tv commercials. I understand everything leads to revenue and thus impacts the product on the field, but my focus is on Ozzie, KW and the players first, the rest second.

Looking at the 25 man roster (plus those on the DL) prior to the call-ups, the names in bold are the ones I'd want back next year. The ones with an asterisk are the ones I don't necessarily want back but for various reasons think the Sox are stuck with (contracts, etc).

Catchers
AJ
Castro
Flowers
Lucy

Infield
Konerko
Beckham
Ramirez
(Trade bait if Escobar is ready?)
Morel (If there's an upgrade, I won't object, but don't think he's the problem)
Vizquel
Lillibridge
Dunn* (No one's taking that contract)

Outfield
Rios*
TCQ (Trade bait)
Pierre
De Aza
Viciedo

Starting Pitchers
Buehrle (Probably gone as a FA)
Danks
Floyd
Humber
Peavy*
Stewart (maybe out of the pen next year?)

Relief Pitchers
Santos
Sale
(Maybe to the rotation next year?)
Crain
Ohman
Kinney
Frasor
Thornton (Trade bait)
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Old 09-04-2011, 12:59 PM
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DumpJerry DumpJerry is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TomBradley72 View Post
The organization needs an ovehaul in all areas of the franchise-

Replace Brooks Boyer- after a strong start with "Grinder Rules/Win or Die Trying"- not much to show for the past few seasons of disjointed marketing campaigns along with a very stale promotion schedule (PLEASE cancel Elvis Night, Mullett Night, Rat Pack Night, Halfway to St. Pats Day, etc. in 2012- they were interesting when they were new- now just stale and almost embarassing).

Replace DJ in the radio booth- this is a major market- he's a AAA level announcer that has never been embraced by the fan base.

Replace Chris Rongey as the pre/post game radio host- he brings a confrontational style to the fan base and has seemed completely out of touch with reality and/or a complete "house man" with his defense of this team, etc.- need someone with more balance- who can handle the idiot post game callers- but still handle callers questioning the managers/GM's decisions, etc.

The balance sheet must look horrible for this year,
Yeah, Brooks, DJ and Rongey have cost the Sox how many games this year? *crickets*

You can speculate all you want about the Sox balance sheet all you, you will never see it. As noted above, the balance is fine. The Sox have diversified into many business entities (included CSN) which keeps them afloat very nicely no matter what the contracts and attendance looks like.
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Old 09-04-2011, 01:22 PM
cards press box cards press box is offline
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Originally Posted by doublem23 View Post
I'd like the Sox to fire Ozzie and the on-field coaching staff. Otherwise, I'm pretty OK with stuff.
Don Cooper, too? Boy, I sure hope that Cooper stays. He is probably the best Sox pitching coach since Ray Berres. Great pitching coaches are hard to find. We have one, hopefully for a long time.

Quote:
Originally Posted by tstrike2000 View Post
I don't think DJ's a great radio announcer, but I personally I've always liked DJ. Unless they're actually going to make the effort to get someone noticeably better, I'd keep DJ.
DJ actually does play-by-play quite well on the radio. If there is a problem with the radio voices, it's not DJ. It's Farmio. I don't know about anyone else but I am completely fed up with Farmio fighting with DJ all the time. He had the same annoying habit of fighting with Chris Singleton on the air. I didn't like listening to that, either.

The other day I was listening to an ESPN radio broadcast of a baseball game with Singleton and Jon Sciambi at the mike. You know what? Singleton was entertaining and had some insightful things to say. Of course, Sciambi was not perpetually picking a fight with him, either.

Quote:
Originally Posted by tstrike2000 View Post
I like Ranger, too. The age old question is, what do you expect him to say? This is a .500 team with horrid season long slumps from two guys we absolutely needed in order to compete in this division.
That poor guy has one of the hardest baseball related jobs probably anywhere. What does one say to callers who want to analyze minutia on a bad loss when the obvious is staring everyone in the face -- the Sox are not good enough to make the post-season or make a dent in it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by delben91 View Post

Catchers
AJ
Castro
Flowers
Lucy

Infield
Konerko
Beckham
Ramirez (Trade bait if Escobar is ready?)
Morel (If there's an upgrade, I won't object, but don't think he's the problem)
Vizquel
Lillibridge
Dunn* (No one's taking that contract)

Outfield
Rios*
TCQ (Trade bait)
Pierre
De Aza
Viciedo

Starting Pitchers
Buehrle (Probably gone as a FA)
Danks
Floyd
Humber
Peavy*
Stewart (maybe out of the pen next year?)

Relief Pitchers
Santos
Sale (Maybe to the rotation next year?)
Crain
Ohman
Kinney
Frasor
Thornton (Trade bait)
Don't be so sure that the Sox can't deal Dunn. I still think there might be a bad contract for bad contract swap somewhere. The question is: are the Sox better off gambling on Dunn getting his act together in the offseason or taking on someone else's albatross?
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