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  #1  
Old 08-05-2010, 08:25 AM
thedudeabides thedudeabides is offline
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Default Viciedo, Kotsay, and the Trade Deadline

I've mentioned before that I have a friend who is a MLB scout. He doesn't work for the White Sox, but is close with a few of the scouts with the Sox and a couple of front office people. I had a chance to talk with him last night and he had some very interesting things to say. I'm usually very hesitant to pass his information along on this site, but since there has been about 5 different daily threads regarding the topic, I figured I would give it a go. Do with it what you like.

First off, he says the Sox were targeting Jackson and not planning on giving him up. Pitching depth was their first priority and he said Coop hasn't been this excited for a particular pitcher since he's gotten here. If they were getting a bat, it would be in a separate deal.The Sox liked Hudson but were very concerned with his pitch efficiency and his fear of pitching to contact. They didn't think it would work in the AL, and they didn't think he was ready enough to handle a pennant race.

I think what he had to say about Viciedo was very telling. When he was brought up Kenny had a meeting with Ozzie and the coaching staff and how he is being used now has been his plan from the beginning. Kenny only wanted him playing 3B against lefties. There are several reasons. Dayan had a very difficult time adjusting to the culture last year, and even the beginning of this year in Birmingham, and at times was completely lost. They thought he would be more comfortable here and thought he would benefit more from the camaraderie and mentoring of Alexei, Omar, Joey Cora, and Ozzie.....amongst others. They want to work more at this level on his fielding and get him accustom to the lifestyle, and build his confidence. This same scout told me this winter how much they loved his bat, and that he was ahead of Flowers and everyone else in the organization, as far as being major league ready, even though people here thought that was nuts. Remember, Kenny took a lot of flack for this signing, and many even here were calling him a non-prospect just this offseason. Apparently, Dayan is adjusting well and really enjoying himself. He may end up seeing some more playing time, if he feels comfortable.

On to Kotsay. Apparently, he is the most loved player in the clubhouse and was very big help in keeping this club together. The players have been unanimous about keeping him here, and were very vocal about not doing anything offensively, unless it was a big time bat. They wanted to give him some more time, as they feel he has been very unlucky and think the offense is fine, especially when they add Teahen back to the mix.

A couple more observations he had. He thinks the Sox bench depth and the ability to rest and play guys at a lot of different spots has been a big part of their success this year. Much of the talk around the league is to copy this model as many GM's are concerned players are wearing down fast without greenies, and that everyone will need more rest.

He also said the rumblings amongst baseball people are that Ozzie will be the AL manager of the year.

(Mods feel free to move this if you feel it's more appropriate for What's the Score.)
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  #2  
Old 08-05-2010, 08:29 AM
Craig Grebeck Craig Grebeck is offline
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I've really got no problem with using kid gloves with Dayan, I just don't see how he would suffer from the occasional start at DH against a right-handed pitcher. If he lights up the world a few games at third base, and Kotsay continues to be Mark Kotsay, why not give him a chance?

Anyway, good insight tda. Fun to read.
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  #3  
Old 08-05-2010, 08:31 AM
Rocky Soprano Rocky Soprano is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thedudeabides View Post
He also said the rumblings amongst baseball people are that Ozzie will be the AL manager of the year.
Thanks for posting that, I enjoyed reading it.
How can baseball people already be crowning Ozzie if there is still plenty of baseball to be played? If the Sox win the division then I can see why he would be a top choice but I think its a bit early to have that discussion.
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Old 08-05-2010, 08:33 AM
Balfanman Balfanman is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thedudeabides View Post
I've mentioned before that I have a friend who is a MLB scout. He doesn't work for the White Sox, but is close with a few of the scouts with the Sox and a couple of front office people. I had a chance to talk with him last night and he had some very interesting things to say. I'm usually very hesitant to pass his information along on this site, but since there has been about 5 different daily threads regarding the topic, I figured I would give it a go. Do with it what you like.

First off, he says the Sox were targeting Jackson and not planning on giving him up. Pitching depth was their first priority and he said Coop hasn't been this excited for a particular pitcher since he's gotten here. If they were getting a bat, it would be in a separate deal.The Sox liked Hudson but were very concerned with his pitch efficiency and his fear of pitching to contact. They didn't think it would work in the AL, and they didn't think he was ready enough to handle a pennant race.

I think what he had to say about Viciedo was very telling. When he was brought up Kenny had a meeting with Ozzie and the coaching staff and how he is being used now has been his plan from the beginning. Kenny only wanted him playing 3B against lefties. There are several reasons. Dayan had a very difficult time adjusting to the culture last year, and even the beginning of this year in Birmingham, and at times was completely lost. They thought he would be more comfortable here and thought he would benefit more from the camaraderie and mentoring of Alexei, Omar, Joey Cora, and Ozzie.....amongst others. They want to work more at this level on his fielding and get him accustom to the lifestyle, and build his confidence. This same scout told me this winter how much they loved his bat, and that he was ahead of Flowers and everyone else in the organization, as far as being major league ready, even though people here thought that was nuts. Remember, Kenny took a lot of flack for this signing, and many even here were calling him a non-prospect just this offseason. Apparently, Dayan is adjusting well and really enjoying himself. He may end up seeing some more playing time, if he feels comfortable.

On to Kotsay. Apparently, he is the most loved player in the clubhouse and was very big help in keeping this club together. The players have been unanimous about keeping him here, and were very vocal about not doing anything offensively, unless it was a big time bat. They wanted to give him some more time, as they feel he has been very unlucky and think the offense is fine, especially when they add Teahen back to the mix.

A couple more observations he had. He thinks the Sox bench depth and the ability to rest and play guys at a lot of different spots has been a big part of their success this year. Much of the talk around the league is to copy this model as many GM's are concerned players are wearing down fast without greenies, and that everyone will need more rest.

He also said the rumblings amongst baseball people are that Ozzie will be the AL manager of the year.

(Mods feel free to move this if you feel it's more appropriate for What's the Score.)
Well; this would explain alot. I don't like Kotsay at D.H. either, but I also knew that Ozzie wasn't that stupid.
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  #5  
Old 08-05-2010, 08:35 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thedudeabides View Post
I've mentioned before that I have a friend who is a MLB scout. He doesn't work for the White Sox, but is close with a few of the scouts with the Sox and a couple of front office people. I had a chance to talk with him last night and he had some very interesting things to say. I'm usually very hesitant to pass his information along on this site, but since there has been about 5 different daily threads regarding the topic, I figured I would give it a go. Do with it what you like.

First off, he says the Sox were targeting Jackson and not planning on giving him up. Pitching depth was their first priority and he said Coop hasn't been this excited for a particular pitcher since he's gotten here. If they were getting a bat, it would be in a separate deal.The Sox liked Hudson but were very concerned with his pitch efficiency and his fear of pitching to contact. They didn't think it would work in the AL, and they didn't think he was ready enough to handle a pennant race.

I think what he had to say about Viciedo was very telling. When he was brought up Kenny had a meeting with Ozzie and the coaching staff and how he is being used now has been his plan from the beginning. Kenny only wanted him playing 3B against lefties. There are several reasons. Dayan had a very difficult time adjusting to the culture last year, and even the beginning of this year in Birmingham, and at times was completely lost. They thought he would be more comfortable here and thought he would benefit more from the camaraderie and mentoring of Alexei, Omar, Joey Cora, and Ozzie.....amongst others. They want to work more at this level on his fielding and get him accustom to the lifestyle, and build his confidence. This same scout told me this winter how much they loved his bat, and that he was ahead of Flowers and everyone else in the organization, as far as being major league ready, even though people here thought that was nuts. Remember, Kenny took a lot of flack for this signing, and many even here were calling him a non-prospect just this offseason. Apparently, Dayan is adjusting well and really enjoying himself. He may end up seeing some more playing time, if he feels comfortable.

On to Kotsay. Apparently, he is the most loved player in the clubhouse and was very big help in keeping this club together. The players have been unanimous about keeping him here, and were very vocal about not doing anything offensively, unless it was a big time bat. They wanted to give him some more time, as they feel he has been very unlucky and think the offense is fine, especially when they add Teahen back to the mix.

A couple more observations he had. He thinks the Sox bench depth and the ability to rest and play guys at a lot of different spots has been a big part of their success this year. Much of the talk around the league is to copy this model as many GM's are concerned players are wearing down fast without greenies, and that everyone will need more rest.

He also said the rumblings amongst baseball people are that Ozzie will be the AL manager of the year.

(Mods feel free to move this if you feel it's more appropriate for What's the Score.)
Good read. Thanks for posting.
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  #6  
Old 08-05-2010, 08:36 AM
october23sp october23sp is offline
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I'll have to agree with Hudson and his fear of pitching to contact. We don't need a pitcher to "settle in" to the Bigs in a pennant race. Jackson has been a MLB pitcher for a couple years now. Experience alone from Jackson will help us out.

If Jackson has a bad outing where he gives up 6 runs in 3 innings, I will have confidence in him to come back in his next outing and be fine. As opposed to a young pitcher who could get easily rattled by a bad start and it would turn into 2-3 bad starts.
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Old 08-05-2010, 08:40 AM
thedudeabides thedudeabides is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rocky Soprano View Post
Thanks for posting that, I enjoyed reading it.
How can baseball people already be crowning Ozzie if there is still plenty of baseball to be played? If the Sox win the division then I can see why he would be a top choice but I think its a bit early to have that discussion.
Sorry, I should have qualified that with, if they win the division. It,s a little early to make that assumption.
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Old 08-05-2010, 08:40 AM
palehosepub palehosepub is offline
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Some really good insight and it makes a lot of sense, especially about the Jackson / Hudson trade
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Old 08-05-2010, 08:47 AM
Red Barchetta Red Barchetta is offline
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Thanks. Nice read.

If the SOX continue at this pace, even with the traditional DH production numbers down, the theory of a strong bench vs. one full time DH might prove to be correct.

We know Ozzie does not like the one-dimensional traditional DH role and would rather utilize the spot in the order to move in/out bench players while offering defensive starters a 1/2 day off. Who knows, if the SOX prove this model to be successful, we might see more AL teams adopt the approach.

I really think the acquistion of Vizquel has helped us in many more ways than just the on-field production/stats. It's like having a playing coach on the field.
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Old 08-05-2010, 08:52 AM
Domeshot17 Domeshot17 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Red Barchetta View Post
Thanks. Nice read.

If the SOX continue at this pace, even with the traditional DH production numbers down, the theory of a strong bench vs. one full time DH might prove to be correct.

We know Ozzie does not like the one-dimensional traditional DH role and would rather utilize the spot in the order to move in/out bench players while offering defensive starters a 1/2 day off. Who knows, if the SOX prove this model to be successful, we might see more AL teams adopt the approach.

I really think the acquistion of Vizquel has helped us in many more ways than just the on-field production/stats. It's like having a playing coach on the field.
The idea is fine, the execution is still wrong. I don't care how you slice it, anytime you force yourself to use a player who has given you virtually nothing offensively for the better part of a season, it isn't good.

Would the system work with a better hitter? Sure, the idea is fine. However, this team is not winning because we have Mark Kotsay in the lineup. Maybe it is winning because he is in the clubhouse, but the lineup, no. If you replaced Kotsay's bat with a better hitter it probably equals a few more wins.

If anything, we are winning despite the blackhole in the middle of the lineup, not because of it.
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Old 08-05-2010, 09:02 AM
BringHomeDaBacon BringHomeDaBacon is offline
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Nice post and very well written - kudos.

If true, I have no problem toning down my level of hate of Kotsay. Domeshot is right, however, he should be on the bench in lieu of a bigger bat. And I would say that Viciedo and even Teahen (yikes) are bigger bats.
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Old 08-05-2010, 09:04 AM
hawkjt hawkjt is offline
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I like Kenny's rationale on all of this.
Pitching,more than ever, is king. Sox saw what a shaky cog in the rotation could do on Tuesday when Torres gave up 5 in the first two innnings.
Too big a gamble with a rookie like Hudson...the percentage move was to get a veteran.

As for Dayan, also makes a lot of sense. I know a number of fans on here,who really follow the minors,were not optimistic about Dayan last year. These guys are not robots,and coming from Cuba, it makes special handling more important,probably. The Sox are almost uniquely suited for nurturing a young player from Cuba like this with Ozzie,Alexei, Omar.ect..
Alexei was helped by Jose Contreras....and so it goes.

I also think that Kotsay must have intangibles that we do not see. If he was Swisher, he would be gone by now. If the Sox can just hang in there til Teahen comes back,when Kotsay can go back to his pinch hitting/1st base role...the clubhouse can be very stable.
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Old 08-05-2010, 09:18 AM
asindc asindc is offline
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Originally Posted by hawkjt View Post
I like Kenny's rationale on all of this.
Pitching,more than ever, is king. Sox saw what a shaky cog in the rotation could do on Tuesday when Torres gave up 5 in the first two innnings.
Too big a gamble with a rookie like Hudson...the percentage move was to get a veteran.

As for Dayan, also makes a lot of sense. I know a number of fans on here,who really follow the minors,were not optimistic about Dayan last year. These guys are not robots,and coming from Cuba, it makes special handling more important,probably. The Sox are almost uniquely suited for nurturing a young player from Cuba like this with Ozzie,Alexei, Omar.ect..
Alexei was helped by Jose Contreras....and so it goes.

I also think that Kotsay must have intangibles that we do not see. If he was Swisher, he would be gone by now. If the Sox can just hang in there til Teahen comes back,when Kotsay can go back to his pinch hitting/1st base role...the clubhouse can be very stable.
First bolded point: I think that puts Ozzie's recent comments in better perspective.

Second bolded point: Although I admit I was wrong in saying the Kotsay would not receive so many ABs at DH this year, and I do think others should be DHing ahead of him, I also have thought there had to be some kind of rationale behind Kotsay DHing so much. I don't agree with it, but the bottom line is that if the players are good with it, I won't get bent out of shape about it. Contrast that with Swisher, who clearly not only quickly wore out his welcome with Ozzie, but with his teammates as well.
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Old 08-05-2010, 09:30 AM
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DumpJerry DumpJerry is offline
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Good read. Thanks.

Last year we kept hearing how Kotsay was an excellent clubhouse presence and this is why Ozzie insisted on having him again this year.

As I read the various threads where people are taking up a call to arms over how they see Kotsay, Viciedo and other players are being used, I have to keep reminding myself that the Sox are in first place, not fifth. It is true that as Sox fans, we keep the rose-colored glasses in storage no matter what, so there will always be criticism. My point is that while Ozzie, Kenny, etc. may not do what all of us would like to see done, it seems to be working. Baseball is not an exact science, there are too intangibles to list which makes it work. The management people inside the team know more about how those intangibles interact than any of us ever will. I'm not saying people need to shut up whenever they see Kotsay in the lineup as the DH, etc., but something is working for us.....

If the Sox make the playoffs, it will be the result of the incredible PSC (Post Stanley Cup) run the team went on. This should get Ozzie Manager of the Year. Runs like this one are very rare. In my 48 years, there have been less than 10 among all MLB teams (the fact that two of them are Sox teams, 1983, makes me proud of our team's history).
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Old 08-05-2010, 09:33 AM
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FielderJones FielderJones is offline
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Thanks for passing along your friend's insight, it was very well-reasoned and interesting to read. We have many experts who don't work for MLB posting here; it's nice to get the perspective of someone who's actually in the business. His observations make a lot of sense.
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