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  #76  
Old 08-17-2010, 11:51 AM
russ99 russ99 is offline
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Originally Posted by khan View Post

And yet, KW will throw around a combined $12M to sign a SP with questionable numbers in the little boy NL, and a greedy agent. This is the DEFINITION of Penny wise, but POUND foolish.

Remember this, SOX fans, when KW can't get a trade done in the coming years because he doesn't have the ammo to do so. Or when the SOX don't have an adequate injury replacement for a starting player in the minors in the next few years. Or when the SOX can't put together a competitive team because they don't have the money to fix all of the holes in the roster.
Sorry dude, I absolutely disagree.

If the Sox go double slot to sign Grimes, the kid drafted 4th next year thinks he can get $750k. The Yankees gave their 4th rounder $1.45 million, and their 16th rounder the same $500K Grimes wanted. This is why the draft system is broken and it will be addressed in the next CBA.

And I'd much prefer the Sox spend on a young yet established big leaguer who can strike out 11 batters in a dominant performance over overspending on some kid who's agent or family thinks he should be bribed not to go to school, and may turn out to be a nobody anyway.

And what about the picks the Sox did sign? Looking at the big picture, the overall quality of the farm system isn't going to hinge on a 4th and 8th rounder we couldn't sign.
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  #77  
Old 08-17-2010, 12:35 PM
cws05champ cws05champ is offline
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Originally Posted by russ99 View Post
Sorry dude, I absolutely disagree.

If the Sox go double slot to sign Grimes, the kid drafted 4th next year thinks he can get $750k. The Yankees gave their 4th rounder $1.45 million, and their 16th rounder the same $500K Grimes wanted. This is why the draft system is broken and it will be addressed in the next CBA.

And I'd much prefer the Sox spend on a young yet established big leaguer who can strike out 11 batters in a dominant performance over overspending on some kid who's agent or family thinks he should be bribed not to go to school, and may turn out to be a nobody anyway.
But difference is, Grimes wanted only $250K more than what the Sox were offering whereas Jackson will make 32X that next year.


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Originally Posted by russ99 View Post
And what about the picks the Sox did sign? Looking at the big picture, the overall quality of the farm system isn't going to hinge on a 4th and 8th rounder we couldn't sign.
Dan Hudson was a 5th round pick...he sure made a difference in our system and what we are available to acquire. Young players in the minors are KW's currency for deals...if he has no currency, they will not be able to deal.
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  #78  
Old 08-17-2010, 12:38 PM
Jeff B Jeff B is offline
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Did a quick recap on what the AL Central teams spent in the draft
Link
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  #79  
Old 08-17-2010, 12:40 PM
khan khan is offline
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Originally Posted by russ99 View Post
Sorry dude, I absolutely disagree.

If the Sox go double slot to sign Grimes, the kid drafted 4th next year thinks he can get $750k. The Yankees gave their 4th rounder $1.45 million, and their 16th rounder the same $500K Grimes wanted. This is why the draft system is broken and it will be addressed in the next CBA.
Sure. When the CBA changes, then the SOX must operate under the new rules. However, until then, the SOX can, and MUST operate as the rules currently exist.

When you compare what the SOX have invested into the minor leagues, both between the scouting [especially the international scouting] AND the draft bonuses to the investments made by other organizations, it is CLEAR that the SOX have not been sufficiently committed in these areas.

Because of this, the entire organization suffers from a competition standpoint. KW's ability to make trades suffers. The team suffers from a lack of financial flexibility. The team suffers from a lack of adequate injury replacements. Youngsters that might otherwise benefit from more time at a level instead have to be rushed up, due to a lack of depth in quality in the system. All in all, this is penny wise, but dollar dumb.

Quote:
Originally Posted by russ99 View Post
And I'd much prefer the Sox spend on a young yet established big leaguer who can strike out 11 batters in a dominant performance over overspending on some kid who's agent or family thinks he should be bribed not to go to school, and may turn out to be a nobody anyway.
See, you're not making a very accurate, nor a very complete comparison. If we're going to be intellectually honest, it isn't "just" Edwin Jackson vs. Grimes in terms of salary or Jackson vs. Hudson/Holmberg in terms of assets. It is:

1. The top prospect in the system, who has shown he can pitch, by virtue of his 1.59 ERA since [stupidly] being traded. [Yeah, the ERA would probably be higher in the AL, but even if you double it, a 3.18 ERA is excellent.]
2. More pitching depth in the system in Holmberg.
3. The $12M that could be given to find a replacement closer for Jenks next season, a replacement C for AJ, perhaps a starting 1B if PK leaves, a starting 3B if Vizquel retires, and yes, a measly $250K extra to Grimes to beef up a ****ty minor league system.
4. The opportunity to trade Hudson/Holmberg to fix OTHER issues now.

vs.

A hereto fore mediocre NL pitcher with an obese contract for only one more year, and a greedy agent who will make it impossible to re-sign him beyond 2011.


Me, I'd take the huge MOUNTAIN of resources in the first list over the one SP who has gotten off to a good start, but historically has been craptacular, yet expensive.


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Originally Posted by russ99 View Post
And what about the picks the Sox did sign? Looking at the big picture, the overall quality of the farm system isn't going to hinge on a 4th and 8th rounder we couldn't sign.
Every little bit helps. Particularly with a system this ****ty.

Last edited by khan; 08-17-2010 at 12:50 PM.
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  #80  
Old 08-17-2010, 01:00 PM
DirtySox DirtySox is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeff B View Post
Did a quick recap on what the AL Central teams spent in the draft
Link
Thanks. Nice work as always.
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  #81  
Old 08-17-2010, 01:36 PM
russ99 russ99 is offline
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Originally Posted by khan View Post
Sure. When the CBA changes, then the SOX must operate under the new rules. However, until then, the SOX can, and MUST operate as the rules currently exist.

When you compare what the SOX have invested into the minor leagues, both between the scouting [especially the international scouting] AND the draft bonuses to the investments made by other organizations, it is CLEAR that the SOX have not been sufficiently committed in these areas.

Because of this, the entire organization suffers from a competition standpoint. KW's ability to make trades suffers. The team suffers from a lack of financial flexibility. The team suffers from a lack of adequate injury replacements. Youngsters that might otherwise benefit from more time at a level instead have to be rushed up, due to a lack of depth in quality in the system. All in all, this is penny wise, but dollar dumb.

See, you're not making a very accurate, nor a very complete comparison. If we're going to be intellectually honest, it isn't "just" Edwin Jackson vs. Grimes in terms of salary or Jackson vs. Hudson/Holmberg in terms of assets. It is:

1. The top prospect in the system, who has shown he can pitch, by virtue of his 1.59 ERA since [stupidly] being traded. [Yeah, the ERA would probably be higher in the AL, but even if you double it, a 3.18 ERA is excellent.]
2. More pitching depth in the system in Holmberg.
3. The $12M that could be given to find a replacement closer for Jenks next season, a replacement C for AJ, perhaps a starting 1B if PK leaves, a starting 3B if Vizquel retires, and yes, a measly $250K extra to Grimes to beef up a ****ty minor league system.
4. The opportunity to trade Hudson/Holmberg to fix OTHER issues now.

vs.

A hereto fore mediocre NL pitcher with an obese contract for only one more year, and a greedy agent who will make it impossible to re-sign him beyond 2011.


Me, I'd take the huge MOUNTAIN of resources in the first list over the one SP who has gotten off to a good start, but historically has been craptacular, yet expensive.

Every little bit helps. Particularly with a system this ****ty.
Gotta agree with Kenny.

IMO, Big league players with experience are always preferable to questionable prospects. What's the percentage of players drafted (even in the top 4 rounds) that go on to have an average big league career?

I can't understand the dislike of Jackson and why anyone would prefer Hudson and his obvious need for further development and a guy like Holmberg who's 3 years away from even coming close to the big leagues.

Especially with the justifcation of disliking Jackson being based on his agent, his extremely limited time in the NL (instead of his years in the AL) and his payroll number for next year which is less than we paid Javy Vasquez.

Sure, we can't expect him to pitch as he has with the Sox so far all the time, but the guy has the proven talent to do so. All Hudson has proven is that he can have a few good starts with a last place NL ballclub.

Seems we have to agree to disagree. I want the Sox to commit resources to win now at the big league level, you want them build a good farm system regardless of how that affects the year-to-year success of the team.

BTW - The Twins who are such supposed drafting geniuses and can develop prospects every year spent less in the draft than the Sox did. Bonuses are only part of the equasion.

Last edited by russ99; 08-17-2010 at 01:43 PM.
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  #82  
Old 08-17-2010, 01:52 PM
khan khan is offline
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Originally Posted by russ99 View Post
Gotta agree with Kenny.
Ah yes: The lazy-minded "In Kenny We Trust" stuff, right?

2005 was great, but it's fading in our memories with every passing year.

Quote:
Originally Posted by russ99 View Post
IMO, Big league players with experience are always preferable to questionable prospects.
I disagree. Historically-****ty players with experience aren't preferable to say, Bryce Harper, for example.

Quote:
Originally Posted by russ99 View Post
I can't understand the dislike of Jackson and why anyone would prefer Hudson and his obvious need for further development and a guy like Holmberg who's 3 years away from even coming close to the big leagues.

Especially with the justifcation of disliking Jackson being based on his agent, his extremely limited time in the NL (instead of his years in the AL) and his payroll number which is less than we paid Javy Vasquez.
See, there is no disliking of Jackson himself. That's entirely irrational, and we as fans have no reason to dislike the man.


What is disagreeable, however, is what Jackson cost in terms of:

1. Assets: Hudson has pitched very well since being traded, while Holmberg has a future.
2. Money: Jackson's contract is OBESE for what he provides.
3. Length of his contract.
4. His agent.
5. The state of this year's team. [Many posters do NOT see the SOX as being only "An Edwin Jackson away from a World Series" in THIS year.]
6. The near future of this team. [The $12M paid to Jackson could have gone to solve problems at Catcher, 1B, 3B, DH, Closer, RH setup, and elsewhere.]


Also, your reference to Vazquez is entirely irrelevant. When Vazquez was acquired, the SOX had just won a WS, and did NOT have the holes st 1B, 3B, DH, Closer, or RH setup that they do now. The team was younger and better than it is now. The SOX did not have two SPs already @ $15M+/yr in the team. The SOX did not have a John Danks re-signing to face.

In sum, comparing Vazquez to Edwin Jackson is akin to comparing apples to supernovae.


Quote:
Originally Posted by russ99 View Post
Sure, we can't expect him to pitch as he has with the Sox so far all the time, but the guy has the proven talent to do so.
For the money and for what was given up in trade, he'd better.

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Originally Posted by russ99 View Post
Seems we have to agree to disagree. I want the Sox to commit resources to win now at the big league level, you want them build a good farm system regardless of how that affects the year-to-year success of the team.
Disagreed with your [again] incomplete and intellectually dishonest summary here. I don't believe that Jackson will be the reason for the SOX to win a World Series. [I say a WS, because that's MY definition of "win now."]

I want to have a successful team that uses it's resources wisely, so that my team has a chance to win EACH AND EVERY YEAR, not just once a decade or so. I disdain wasting and squandering of resources with the fire of 1,000 suns. Unless the SOX make the playoffs, it sure looks like they're wasting $12M, a couple players [one of which looks pretty good in early returns, BTW], and the opportunity to trade those players for other holes in the roster.

Last edited by khan; 08-17-2010 at 02:06 PM.
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  #83  
Old 08-17-2010, 02:04 PM
khan khan is offline
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BTW - The Twins who are such supposed drafting geniuses and can develop prospects every year spent less in the draft than the Sox did. Bonuses are only part of the equasion.
Again, you're being intellectually dishonest here. [I say "intellectually dishonest" because you're not a dumb guy.] You're either being willfully ignorant, or deliberately omitting key facts:

1. The SOX did spend more on their draft bonuses [$3.455M vs. $3.08M.] But then, the SOX DID draft earlier in each and every round than the TWINS. [#13 vs. #21 in each and every round.]

Adjusting for the "slotting" difference between the two teams, the two teams spent similarly in this draft.


2. The twins have a much better minor league system than the SOX. Therefore, they are not as desperate to restock their cupboards as are the SOX, and have less of a need to go over-slot.


3. The twins are better at scouting and developing players, and thus, do not have to take the desperate measures to make up the difference between the two organizations.


4. The SOX, being a big market team, should have more financial resources to re-stock the minor league systems than the twins. Despite this, the two teams' investments into the draft are similar.
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  #84  
Old 08-17-2010, 11:28 PM
canOcorn canOcorn is offline
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Figures.

Supposedly slot was around $250,000 and he was seeking near $500,000. Not a big deal for most teams.
Yet we pay 3 times that for our everyday DH. Clown shoes.....
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  #85  
Old 08-19-2010, 09:52 AM
CPditka CPditka is offline
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The D-Lee trade yesterday really got me thinking. To aquirre good prospects in a trade you have to eat salary of a vet like him. How many times do you see a team eating Millions (not thousands). I think we have done this in the past as well. Thome? Conteras? Not really sure on the specifics of that, and we didnt received "good" prospects.


Just one more reason to invest in your farm. A couple extra thousand could save you millions down the road in overpaying for someone elses prospect. Just do the cash dump, and dont ask for prospects back. But you can only do that if your farm is stocked.
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  #86  
Old 08-20-2010, 04:24 PM
DirtySox DirtySox is offline
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Only 4 teams spent less than the White Sox on the draft this season:

http://www.baseballamerica.com/blog/draft/?p=2928
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  #87  
Old 08-20-2010, 04:28 PM
PolishPrince34 PolishPrince34 is offline
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You beat me to it, I was just going to share that information from baseball america. We are the 4th lowest in spending in the 2010 draft. We are last in spending for the last 3 years. Pathetic and we are major market team. Come on Jerry open up your wallet and realize the importance of a good farm system.
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  #88  
Old 08-21-2010, 07:13 AM
soxball14 soxball14 is offline
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Dan Hudson was a 5th round pick...he sure made a difference in our system and what we are available to acquire. Young players in the minors are KW's currency for deals...if he has no currency, they will not be able to deal.[/QUOTE]




Dan Hudson also signed for slot!
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  #89  
Old 08-21-2010, 07:20 AM
soxball14 soxball14 is offline
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I love how people on here are saying how the Sox can't scout and the Player Development guys are terrible... I would think the complete opposite. If they are getting Beckham, Hudson and Sale to the ML and have guys like Dexter Carter, Poreda, Ely, Holmberg and others that are being used to get guys in return for proven ML talent how can anyone say that those two groups are no good? I would say that with the money spent in the draft they are doing a good job of using their resources and getting the best players and developing them with what they have to spend.
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  #90  
Old 08-21-2010, 08:09 AM
Domeshot17 Domeshot17 is offline
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Originally Posted by soxball14 View Post
I love how people on here are saying how the Sox can't scout and the Player Development guys are terrible... I would think the complete opposite. If they are getting Beckham, Hudson and Sale to the ML and have guys like Dexter Carter, Poreda, Ely, Holmberg and others that are being used to get guys in return for proven ML talent how can anyone say that those two groups are no good? I would say that with the money spent in the draft they are doing a good job of using their resources and getting the best players and developing them with what they have to spend.
Gordon and Sale came out mlb ready. Those other guys are all nothings. Poreda may never even make it as an mlb reliever. He has about no chance to be a starter in the pros. Yes, trading him for Peavy makes up for how terrible of a pick he was, but we passed on a far far superior talent to take him, it is what we do.

There is zero defense for the way the Sox draft and Scout. Kenny was terrible at it when it was his job, and Buddy Bell has only made minor improvements because his resources are so limited. The Sox, by being cheap, also passed on a player expected to be a TOP 10 pick in next years draft.

I will never hammer Jerry or Kenny for being cheap with Payroll. 90-100 mil every year with our fan base is solid. But in the draft, we cut corners, and it is obvious.
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