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  #151  
Old 09-28-2009, 02:44 PM
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asindc asindc is offline
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Originally Posted by Zisk77 View Post
Duncan's was 0.00 as he was a catcher.
All the more to my point... past play does not dictate future ability or results as a coach.
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  #152  
Old 09-28-2009, 02:57 PM
Ranger Ranger is offline
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Originally Posted by SI1020 View Post
That's a nice thought but then there is reality.
So you're saying there have not been any hitting successes here recently? Alright then. If you truly believe that, then an argument with you is impossible as you are operating in an entirely different universe.

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Originally Posted by captain54 View Post
we finally agree....it does sound pretty dumb...but only because its an exact parallel to what is going on.
OK, now I think you're saying things just to say them because you can't not have the last word. I had a girlfriend like this once. In the middle of an argument she would eventually start repeating things back to me that I had said to her a few minutes prior. Just so she wasn't without something to come back with. Like in the movies when someone is being attacked and they just start throwing whatever is in their reach at the attacker. Chairs, dishes, vases, books, anything they can get their hands on.

No analogy is ever dumb because it makes perfect sense. Think about what you just said.
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  #153  
Old 09-28-2009, 04:18 PM
captain54 captain54 is offline
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Originally Posted by Ranger View Post

OK, now I think you're saying things just to say them because you can't not have the last word. I had a girlfriend like this once.
She was probably never like that, but after dating you, she needed SOME kind of intellectual ammunition to counter your "I'm SO much smarter than you, how can you POSSIBLY disagree with me" attitude.


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Originally Posted by Ranger View Post
No analogy is ever dumb because it makes perfect sense. Think about what you just said.
Incorrect, bunky...the very nature of an analogy is that it doesn't make sense. You are pairing two things that don't belong together. So it inherently sounds dumb.

Mod Edit: You can make your point without resorting to personal attacks. You've been warned.
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  #154  
Old 09-28-2009, 04:48 PM
salty99 salty99 is offline
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Chairs, dishes, vases, books, anything they can get their hands on.
How about the kitchen sink?

BTW I still think your autograph is worth more than used toilet paper..hahaha!
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  #155  
Old 09-28-2009, 06:38 PM
Ranger Ranger is offline
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Originally Posted by captain54 View Post
She was probably never like that, but after dating you, she needed SOME kind of intellectual ammunition to counter your "I'm SO much smarter than you, how can you POSSIBLY disagree with me" attitude.

Incorrect, bunky...the very nature of an analogy is that it doesn't make sense. You are pairing two things that don't belong together. So it inherently sounds dumb.

Mod Edit: You can make your point without resorting to personal attacks. You've been warned.
It's not about being able to match wits, captain. It's about making sense and not disagreeing for the sake of disagreement.

Do you know what an analogy is? The purpose of an analogy is to make sense so it can explain some other unrelated situation. They aren't supposed to be dumb. Why are we having this discussion?
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  #156  
Old 09-28-2009, 06:55 PM
captain54 captain54 is offline
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Originally Posted by Ranger View Post
It's not about being able to match wits, captain. It's about making sense and not disagreeing for the sake of disagreement.
I have better things to do with my time than to come on the board and disagree just for the sake of disagreement. Also, I think suggesting I come on this board and just babble non sensically is a little unfair and a bit condescending.

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Originally Posted by Ranger View Post
Do you know what an analogy is? The purpose of an analogy is to make sense so it can explain some other unrelated situation. They aren't supposed to be dumb. Why are we having this discussion?
ANALOGY: "resemblance in some particulars between things otherwise unlike"

My interpretation of that definition is that you are taking two things that you probably wouldn't mention in the same sentence and make them sound similiar..

Your point is correct...The end result is for it all to make sense...My point is also correct...When you first read an analogy, on the surface it sounds kind of silly because you are putting things together that don't belong together.
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  #157  
Old 09-28-2009, 07:01 PM
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doublem23 doublem23 is offline
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Originally Posted by dickallen15 View Post
A lot.
If you don't hold accountable the people who really are at fault, nothing will change. If a player's poor performance, or lack of execution, is blamed on a coach, why would they ever get better? They can only get praised for what goes right. If something goes wrong, its never their fault. Its laughable, but plenty here see it that way.
NOBODY HAS EVER SAID FIRING WALKER WOULDN'T BE ANYTHING BUT SYMBOLIC. But come on, it isn't even possible the Sox offense could do any worse with a new hitting coach. Despite the $100 million payrolls, the Sox offense has been a terrible joke for the better part of his tenure here. TCQ had a great season in 2008 and they still were among the least productive offenses in the American League. I'm sorry, if you're defend a guy who is getting the same results as the Royals with 10x the talent, I don't know what to say any more.

Fire Walker.
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  #158  
Old 09-28-2009, 07:43 PM
dickallen15 dickallen15 is offline
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Originally Posted by doublem23 View Post
NOBODY HAS EVER SAID FIRING WALKER WOULDN'T BE ANYTHING BUT SYMBOLIC. But come on, it isn't even possible the Sox offense could do any worse with a new hitting coach. Despite the $100 million payrolls, the Sox offense has been a terrible joke for the better part of his tenure here. TCQ had a great season in 2008 and they still were among the least productive offenses in the American League. I'm sorry, if you're defend a guy who is getting the same results as the Royals with 10x the talent, I don't know what to say any more.

Fire Walker.
Symbolic firings are dumb.
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  #159  
Old 09-28-2009, 08:27 PM
soxfanreggie soxfanreggie is offline
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But come on, it isn't even possible the Sox offense could do any worse with a new hitting coach.
I agree that a change should be made, but it could get worse. Imagine the dark clouds if it did get worse.

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Originally Posted by asindc View Post
All the more to my point... past play does not dictate future ability or results as a coach.
Agree 100%. Sometimes former stars make bad coaches. I have former players who were great players but couldn't coach their way out of a paper bag. In turn, I've had mediocre players and even the ones with the least talent be some of the best coaches.
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  #160  
Old 09-28-2009, 09:15 PM
soxinem1 soxinem1 is offline
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Originally Posted by doublem23 View Post
NOBODY HAS EVER SAID FIRING WALKER WOULDN'T BE ANYTHING BUT SYMBOLIC. But come on, it isn't even possible the Sox offense could do any worse with a new hitting coach. Despite the $100 million payrolls, the Sox offense has been a terrible joke for the better part of his tenure here. TCQ had a great season in 2008 and they still were among the least productive offenses in the American League. I'm sorry, if you're defend a guy who is getting the same results as the Royals with 10x the talent, I don't know what to say any more.

Fire Walker.
They said this with Von Joshua fired less than a year after his hitters almost scored 1000 runs. Remember the team watching football instead of hitting tapes back in 2001?

They said this after Gary Ward couldn't get them to hit to their potential.

They also said this after Ron Jackson couldn't get them to hit to their potential.

Ironically, the White Sox were ninth in runs winning the World Series, then were on a pace to score about 1100 after the first 85 games of 2006. Was Walker all of a sudden a genious? No. They just got the big hits when they needed them in 2005, then crushed the ball for three months the next season.

Should he get all the credit for Quentin's 2008 season, Beckham's strong starting MLB career, or Pods 2009 resurgence? No again.

But should Walker be fired because these hitters choke in the clutch or did not produce? No.

It seems most posters on this board believe Thome and Dye are washed up, Wise is not a major-league hitter, there are too many rookies in the lineup, etc., then how does the hitting coach heal this?

Maybe it is performance....

And while we are on it, should Coop be fired because his bullpen has cracked up in three of the past four seasons? Or that the fifth starter situation has bit the White Sox in the ass for the umpteenth season since the mid-90's?

He got so much credit for making a productive pitcher out of Matt Thornton, but what about the talent of Boone Logan, Andrew Sisco, Tony Pena, Javier Vazquez, Neal Cotts, etc.? What about Contreras pitching BP pretty much since he lost to the cubs near mid-season in 2006? What about getting Jenks conditioned properly?

Just like Walker, the answer is no. Coop can only help prepare them.

Should Cora be fired because of the lousy defensive teams we have fielded since the 2006 season? Why are they so lacking in fundamentals?The defense is his responsibility after all.

But with the silly CF pickups KW has made since 2001, is it Cora's fault that he has to make washed up players prime defenders at key positions? Again, like Walker and Coop, the answer is no. He can only work with them and try to instill the basics. Range, speed, and instincts are up to the players.

Maybe the White Sox should do something different, and that is stick by the coaches they feel are doing their jobs, and make the players more responsible for the shortcomings they exhibit.

When is anyone ever going to put the blame on the guys who acquired the players, or better yet, the players themselves?
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  #161  
Old 09-28-2009, 09:45 PM
captain54 captain54 is offline
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Originally Posted by soxinem1 View Post

They also said this after Ron Jackson couldn't get them to hit to their potential.
As did the Red Sox when Jackson was let go after the 06 season. It happens, teams make changes in personnel when the results aren't there.

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Originally Posted by soxinem1 View Post
They just got the big hits when they needed them in 2005, then crushed the ball for three months the next season.
By big hits, I assume you mean HR's. When the Sox didn't hit HR's in 05', the offense struggled, as it does now. Fortunately, the pitching staff cured a lot of ills in 05.


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Originally Posted by soxinem1 View Post
And while we are on it, should Coop be fired because his bullpen has cracked up in three of the past four seasons?
If you look at the overall numbers this year, the Sox are 3rd in ERA in the AL, and next to last in BA. The Detroit bullpen has been about as effective as the White Sox bullpen, if you look at the numbers. All the White Sox offense would have needed to be is mediocre in 09 and we might not be watching meaningless games the last week of Sept.

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Originally Posted by soxinem1 View Post
When is anyone ever going to put the blame on the guys who acquired the players, or better yet, the players themselves?
Should Walker be held to ANY standard of performance, in your eyes??
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  #162  
Old 09-28-2009, 10:03 PM
soxinem1 soxinem1 is offline
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Originally Posted by captain54 View Post
As did the Red Sox when Jackson was let go after the 06 season. It happens, teams make changes in personnel when the results aren't there.

By big hits, I assume you mean HR's. When the Sox didn't hit HR's in 05', the offense struggled, as it does now. Fortunately, the pitching staff cured a lot of ills in 05.

If you look at the overall numbers this year, the Sox are 3rd in ERA in the AL, and next to last in BA. The Detroit bullpen has been about as effective as the White Sox bullpen, if you look at the numbers. All the White Sox offense would have needed to be is mediocre in 09 and we might not be watching meaningless games the last week of Sept.

Should Walker be held to ANY standard of performance, in your eyes??
I didn't say Jackson was a great coach, but the BOS lineup had a LOT more thump even on paper than the 2005, 2007-2009 White Sox.

The 2005 White Sox were the best clutch-hitting team of this group. They hit a lot of HR's, but the hitters executed when the opportunities were there. They also fielded well.

Team ERA's are mis-leading. For 2009 there are just a handful of players primarily responsible for the team ERA: Buehrle, Danks, Thornton, Dotel, Carrasco, and pre-August Jenks. Post ASB Floyd was a factor, but the rest are arsonists.

And yes, Walker should be held accountable.... by his manager and the team. If the team feels he is doing his job, and the players are not doing theirs, then obviously some changes are in store.
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  #163  
Old 09-29-2009, 12:17 AM
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Nellie_Fox Nellie_Fox is offline
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Originally Posted by doublem23 View Post
...it isn't even possible the Sox offense could do any worse with a new hitting coach.
Of course it is. It's equally possible that it could do better, but to say it couldn't do worse is ignoring many offenses that are/have been worse.
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  #164  
Old 09-29-2009, 06:29 AM
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Originally Posted by captain54 View Post
If you look at the overall numbers this year, the Sox are 3rd in ERA in the AL, and next to last in BA. The Detroit bullpen has been about as effective as the White Sox bullpen, if you look at the numbers. All the White Sox offense would have needed to be is mediocre in 09 and we might not be watching meaningless games the last week of Sept.
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Originally Posted by soxinem1 View Post
Team ERA's are mis-leading. For 2009 there are just a handful of players primarily responsible for the team ERA: Buehrle, Danks, Thornton, Dotel, Carrasco, and pre-August Jenks. Post ASB Floyd was a factor, but the rest are arsonists.
ERA's are definitely misleading. The Sox may be 3rd in ERA, but the lead the league in the amount of unearned runs they've given up. They may not have been as proficient offensively as they should've been, but for the most parts, defense is what ultimately doomed this team IMO.
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  #165  
Old 09-29-2009, 09:07 AM
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ERA's are definitely misleading. The Sox may be 3rd in ERA, but the lead the league in the amount of unearned runs they've given up. They may not have been as proficient offensively as they should've been, but for the most parts, defense is what ultimately doomed this team IMO.
Just to be picky a quick scan of team pitching stats shows at least KC has given up more UE runs. In addition at 720 the Sox are above average in total runs allowed this season
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