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  #46  
Old 08-07-2009, 11:09 AM
oeo oeo is offline
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Originally Posted by Craig Grebeck View Post
I'm guessing people do so because Getz isn't good defensively and it makes sense for Beckham to play 2B in the future.
I'm guessing it has nothing to do with either. People put these labels on minor league players, and they stick, regardless of big league performance.
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  #47  
Old 08-07-2009, 11:11 AM
Randar68 Randar68 is offline
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Originally Posted by voodoochile View Post
The only problem I see with Getz as the utility guy is his value is higher than that. If the Sox can find a better 2B (or move Beckham and sign a 3B or see Viciedo develop) some other team would be willing to give Getz a shot as a starting 2B and let him hit at the bottom of the lineup. He may not be an All Star but plenty of teams would be okay with his production especially with the stolen bases to offset the low OPS. If he continues to hit around .270 and steal 20 bags or more a year, teams would be willing to pay him starter money and the Sox cannot afford to pay that much to have him sit on the bench. In addition if another team values him as a starter, the Sox would be better off trading him for other talent be that minor league prospects or a capable reliever or a utility guy and a prospect. He would have more value in trade than the Sox would get out of him sitting on the bench as it were.

I'm also not sure he's got the range or arm strength to be the backup SS/3B. He was tried there in the minors, but it was brief and there have been other people who have said he's not capable of filling that role successfully (notably Daver who knows a heck of a lot more about the minors and player skill sets than I ever will.)
I still find it amazing how quickly people have given up on Fields. He and Beckham have the same fielding percentage fer crying out loud, and people want to see Viciedo now?

Hopefully Josh can get enough regular at-bats at Charlotte that he can get his swing back to where it needs to be to be this team's everyday 3rd baseman next year. Then they can go into next season with Nix as the utility guy and Gordon and Alexei fight it out int he spring for SS with the loser going to 2nd base. That's a much better infield both defensively and offensively than anything we have been throwing out there thus far this season.

In short, I think people just gave up too quick on Josh and he was roughly equal to what Beckham has been defensively at 3rd thus far, IMO.
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  #48  
Old 08-07-2009, 11:21 AM
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Originally Posted by Randar68 View Post
I still find it amazing how quickly people have given up on Fields. He and Beckham have the same fielding percentage fer crying out loud, and people want to see Viciedo now?

Hopefully Josh can get enough regular at-bats at Charlotte that he can get his swing back to where it needs to be to be this team's everyday 3rd baseman next year. Then they can go into next season with Nix as the utility guy and Gordon and Alexei fight it out int he spring for SS with the loser going to 2nd base. That's a much better infield both defensively and offensively than anything we have been throwing out there thus far this season.

In short, I think people just gave up too quick on Josh and he was roughly equal to what Beckham has been defensively at 3rd thus far, IMO.
I'm not expecting nor hoping for Viciedo anytime soon, just pointing out that eventually he may be the 3B on the big league club if he develops.

I'm completely unenthused with your use of FLD% as a defensive metric. Beckham clearly is a better defensive 3B than Fields already and he's only played 70 games or so in his entire professional career and before that played SS in college. I would expect Beckham's defense to improve and from the looks of things it already has dramatically from where he was when he was first called up. With Josh, we know what we get.

Fields is getting up there in age and whether you think he deserves another shot or not, I highly doubt Ozzie would be pleased with KW if he was forced to go with Fields at 3B next year. I would bet he'd stick with the present setup. Fields posted a .655 OPS in 220+ AB this season in his second extended tour of duty in the majors. Getz is hitting better than that at present and adds a dimension to the offense Fields doesn't. Fields is another all or nothing RH bat who strikes out 1/3 AB.

I'm actually surprised you feel this way and would be shocked if Ozzie did.
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  #49  
Old 08-07-2009, 11:27 AM
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Originally Posted by voodoochile View Post
I'm actually surprised you feel this way and would be shocked if Ozzie did.
I'm surprised I agree with voodoo on this. [or for that matter, anything...]

I maintain that Fields should have been shipped out years ago, before the rest of the world figured out that he's just not very good at baseball.
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  #50  
Old 08-07-2009, 11:42 AM
cws05champ cws05champ is offline
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Originally Posted by voodoochile View Post
I'm not expecting nor hoping for Viciedo anytime soon, just pointing out that eventually he may be the 3B on the big league club if he develops.
I read this interesting article in futuresox.com on Dayan and specifically on his fielding. Basically it says a lot of his fielding issues came earlier in the season and he is handling ground balls well, but struggling mightily on pop ups. It's interesting to say the least.

http://futuresox.com/frontpage/?p=1076&cpage=1
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  #51  
Old 08-07-2009, 12:36 PM
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Originally Posted by voodoochile View Post
I'm completely unenthused with your use of FLD% as a defensive metric. Beckham clearly is a better defensive 3B than Fields already and he's only played 70 games or so in his entire professional career and before that played SS in college. I would expect Beckham's defense to improve and from the looks of things it already has dramatically from where he was when he was first called up. With Josh, we know what we get.
Gordon definitely has more range than Fields, but he was a SS (and still might be), so you surely expect that to be the case. But people complained up and down about Josh's errors, so that was really my only point there.


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Originally Posted by voodoochile View Post
Fields is getting up there in age and whether you think he deserves another shot or not, I highly doubt Ozzie would be pleased with KW if he was forced to go with Fields at 3B next year. I would bet he'd stick with the present setup. Fields posted a .655 OPS in 220+ AB this season in his second extended tour of duty in the majors. Getz is hitting better than that at present and adds a dimension to the offense Fields doesn't. Fields is another all or nothing RH bat who strikes out 1/3 AB.
What does age really have to do with it? Fields was an older draftee and his development is delayed from a baseball-only prospect due to that football background. I don't entirely disagree with your other points, but if you look at Crede's history and how long it took him to become reliable at 3rd base (it wasn't until his 8th professional season he made less than 20 errors but he was a smoother fielding player, no doubt) or at the plate, and I think it's too early to give up on Fields, especially given that the tradeoff is Chris Getz. I just think Beckham is emminently more valuable at SS or 2nd base than 3rd base compared to his peers at those positions.

If the Sox had a legit leadoff guy at 2nd base or SS in his way, I would not have a problem with it, but they don't.
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  #52  
Old 08-07-2009, 12:42 PM
Domeshot17 Domeshot17 is offline
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Originally Posted by Craig Grebeck View Post
I'm guessing people do so because Getz isn't good defensively and it makes sense for Beckham to play 2B in the future.
That is my thing. Getz is just, okay at everything except stealing bases. Hes clearly a great base stealer and a very solid base runner. His defense at 2b is sub par but his arm is good. Nix is the better defender at second, but a poor short stop and below average at 3rd. Ultimately I like Getz in the Nix role because he can play SS at the same level and hopefully next year we add a back up who can play 1st/3rd. I would rather use the few tools Getz has at key times and eliminate the ones he has. He would be a fantastic pinch runner especially in late game situations, and he hits for enough of an average to be a nice pinch hitter.

To me people need to realize it is okay to want to improve at a position without needing an all star. Of 2b, Getz is near the bottom in batting average, OBP, OPS, really the only thing he has well is run and steal.

If he can keep up months like July, he can be solid, and even if he keeps up his 2nd half averages (300 hitter, 775 ops) thats fine, we will just have to see how the season ends.
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  #53  
Old 08-07-2009, 12:47 PM
Domeshot17 Domeshot17 is offline
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Originally Posted by Randar68 View Post
Gordon definitely has more range than Fields, but he was a SS (and still might be), so you surely expect that to be the case. But people complained up and down about Josh's errors, so that was really my only point there.




What does age really have to do with it? Fields was an older draftee and his development is delayed from a baseball-only prospect due to that football background. I don't entirely disagree with your other points, but if you look at Crede's history and how long it took him to become reliable at 3rd base (it wasn't until his 8th professional season he made less than 20 errors but he was a smoother fielding player, no doubt) or at the plate, and I think it's too early to give up on Fields, especially given that the tradeoff is Chris Getz. I just think Beckham is emminently more valuable at SS or 2nd base than 3rd base compared to his peers at those positions.

If the Sox had a legit leadoff guy at 2nd base or SS in his way, I would not have a problem with it, but they don't.
I think people look past Beckham's problems at 3rd because he hits. If Fields hit, we wouldn't hear half the complaints on his D. It just how a lot of fans are.

Also, the football background thing is why I wonder how Mitchell will be. In a way he is a lot like Fields when we took him. Raw, Tremendous potential, great athlete. Mitchell probably has more potential but Josh was highly touted when we picked him. So when people are saying things like 18 months to 2 years to see Mitchell, I doubt we see him for 3-4 years. He is also going to be an older prospect.

Crede basically took the Eli Manning route in his career. Sucked for a long time, everyone hated him, made some fantastic plays in the championship game (or with Crede world series) and became a cult hero.
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  #54  
Old 08-07-2009, 03:03 PM
Randar68 Randar68 is offline
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Originally Posted by Domeshot17 View Post
I think people look past Beckham's problems at 3rd because he hits. If Fields hit, we wouldn't hear half the complaints on his D. It just how a lot of fans are.

Also, the football background thing is why I wonder how Mitchell will be. In a way he is a lot like Fields when we took him. Raw, Tremendous potential, great athlete. Mitchell probably has more potential but Josh was highly touted when we picked him. So when people are saying things like 18 months to 2 years to see Mitchell, I doubt we see him for 3-4 years. He is also going to be an older prospect.

Crede basically took the Eli Manning route in his career. Sucked for a long time, everyone hated him, made some fantastic plays in the championship game (or with Crede world series) and became a cult hero.
I basically agree with you, but they went through pretty different experiences. Mitchell gave up football and was WR. Fields was the starting QB and leader of that OSU team on the football field. The amount of time and off-field effort of being a QB vs a WR is tremendous. Mitchell also gave up football (IIRC), so he has in general spent more time as a full-time baseball player than Fields had at a similar point. Also, Fields plays a tougher position and doesn't have the speed thing to fall back on, so they are pretty different prospects in that regard. If Mitchell gets on base and steals bases, he will move up quickly. With Fields it has been all about being a run-producer in the middle of the order and learning the finer points of 3rd base.

Considering we lose Thome after this year and Konerko's contract is up after next season, I don't see why would would let Josh wallow or trade him until we have given him every possible chance to succeed if not at 3rd, then at least at 1st base.
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  #55  
Old 08-07-2009, 03:32 PM
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Originally Posted by Randar68 View Post
I still find it amazing how quickly people have given up on Fields.
The same is said of most prospects. We (fans) give up on them far to quickly. Baseball people (and given your background, you as well probably) are more patient with kids.

We may or may not be done seeing Josh. KW may do with him what he did with BA. And BA/Josh may still some day be a regular MLB player. They also may (more likely) not ever be anything. But I trust the people who do this for a living can do a far better job than we (fans) can.
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  #56  
Old 08-07-2009, 03:58 PM
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I think with Fields it's less about his defense, and more about his regression with the bat. After his first extended stint with the team he was showing signs of being that middle order bat and even after his crappy limited stay with the team in 2008 several posters were still ready to give him the benefit of the doubt, but his bat if anything regressed this season and his .655 OPS in a third of a season left most posters willing to look in a different direction. In addition, his seeming inability to catch up to a decent Major League fastball looks like a death knell even to people like me who don't generally pay that much attention to those types of details (though I'm trying to get better). It seems on some levels that even with his improved stance this year, he still struggled to hit consistently and his K rate is still through the roof.

He's had nearly 700 PA so far and all of his stats have declined from his first stay with the team.

Joe came out posted a better initial OPS in his first extended stay with the team and then continued to be mostly league average and while he threw up a bunch of errors his first few years, he also showed an instinctive ability to field at third that Fields never has. Crede actually strikes me as one of those rare athletes who doesn't need to look to see where he is in relation to the ball or the stands. He just knows. His kinesthetic sense seems to be off the charts.
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  #57  
Old 08-07-2009, 04:00 PM
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Originally Posted by Randar68 View Post
In short, I think people just gave up too quick on Josh and he was roughly equal to what Beckham has been defensively at 3rd thus far, IMO.
There's a big difference between Beckham playing third and Josh playing it. Beckham is just learning the position. so he still has time to improve. This is Josh's natural position, and he's just not very good at it. The extra work he put in with Cora obviously hasn't helped.
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  #58  
Old 08-07-2009, 04:31 PM
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I basically agree with you, but they went through pretty different experiences. Mitchell gave up football and was WR. Fields was the starting QB and leader of that OSU team on the football field. The amount of time and off-field effort of being a QB vs a WR is tremendous. Mitchell also gave up football (IIRC), so he has in general spent more time as a full-time baseball player than Fields had at a similar point. Also, Fields plays a tougher position and doesn't have the speed thing to fall back on, so they are pretty different prospects in that regard. If Mitchell gets on base and steals bases, he will move up quickly. With Fields it has been all about being a run-producer in the middle of the order and learning the finer points of 3rd base.

Considering we lose Thome after this year and Konerko's contract is up after next season, I don't see why would would let Josh wallow or trade him until we have given him every possible chance to succeed if not at 3rd, then at least at 1st base.
Randar, I agree that their experiences are vastly different. I'd add a couple of more points: Mitchell was a highly regarded baseball prospect as a high school player (the Twins flirted with picking him in the 1st round) for whom football was his second-best sport. Fields was always a football-first prospect, so he is a bit more raw.

But I'd caution that Fields strikeout problems stem from swinging and missing a lot. Often at fastballs in the strike zone. Mitchell gets into to trouble because he takes too many strikes. Mitchell needs to get more aggressive. Fields might need better bat speed. One of those two can be taught.
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  #59  
Old 08-07-2009, 06:10 PM
Craig Grebeck Craig Grebeck is offline
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Considering we lose Thome after this year and Konerko's contract is up after next season, I don't see why would would let Josh wallow or trade him until we have given him every possible chance to succeed if not at 3rd, then at least at 1st base.
Fields would be the worst hitting first baseman in the game.
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  #60  
Old 08-07-2009, 07:08 PM
KyWhiSoxFan KyWhiSoxFan is offline
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Fields would be the worst hitting first baseman in the game.
And probably the worst fielding.
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