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  #136  
Old 02-16-2009, 10:36 PM
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voodoochile voodoochile is offline
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Originally Posted by Tragg View Post
C)Owens has little talent and shows it on the field.

There's little evidence he can get a .350 obp, and a slapper like him who can't drive the ball is a negative below .350 obp.
His D isn't close to adquate - it's bad.
Well, from the sounds of things. Ozzie is planning a platoon. Against RHP, JO puts up a much better slg% and had an 80% steal rate. Not saying it's great, his OPS was still mid .600, but at least he gets a few doubles and his speed will matter more. Hopefully he can improve on his first 300 AB and stay healthy.

Neither of these guys is the solution unless one of them makes a dramatic jump in terms of production, so hopefully they both live up to the best they can be given the time they will get against the pitchers they will face and we can actually have some solid production from CF. Time will tell, but I don't think this is going to be the make or break slot on the team this year anyway.
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  #137  
Old 02-16-2009, 10:59 PM
Tragg Tragg is offline
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Time will tell, but I don't think this is going to be the make or break slot on the team this year anyway.
If he puts owens at leadoff, it may be.
Please put him in the 9 hole where he belongs.
And the D, with Dye and Quentin on the corners, could be dangerous adding Owens (or Wise) to the mix.
Anderson has always hit better against righties.
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  #138  
Old 02-16-2009, 11:37 PM
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Originally Posted by Tragg View Post
If he puts owens at leadoff, it may be.
Please put him in the 9 hole where he belongs.
And the D, with Dye and Quentin on the corners, could be dangerous adding Owens (or Wise) to the mix.
Anderson has always hit better against righties.
And that depends on how well the guys pegged to leadoff do. No guarantees Lillebridge or Getz can hack it. TCM doesn't walk much so his high average is off set by an OBP that is no better than Owens.

I prefer BA bat 9th regardless, he just doesn't have the OBP to be a high order bat, but if it's Getz at .335 or Owens at .325 I take Owens when he starts because he can steal some bags.
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  #139  
Old 02-16-2009, 11:42 PM
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Daver Daver is offline
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And that depends on how well the guys pegged to leadoff do. No guarantees Lillebridge or Getz can hack it. TCM doesn't walk much so his high average is off set by an OBP that is no better than Owens.

I prefer BA bat 9th regardless, he just doesn't have the OBP to be a high order bat, but if it's Getz at .335 or Owens at .325 I take Owens when he starts because he can steal some bags.
His ability to steal bases at 66% is not a good indication of his ability to run the bases, especially on a team that boasts their best baserunner as their catcher.
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  #140  
Old 02-17-2009, 12:09 AM
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His ability to steal bases at 66% is not a good indication of his ability to run the bases, especially on a team that boasts their best baserunner as their catcher.
If that's all he can steal at, I agree, but he's done better than that before.
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  #141  
Old 02-17-2009, 01:01 AM
CWSpalehoseCWS CWSpalehoseCWS is offline
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I've never hated Owens. He isn't very good, but he's the best option IMO right now with what we got. Even if he hits around .260 for us it's way better than Swisher ever did last year. Yeah his D is pretty below average, but that hasn't stopped the Sox in the past: Mackowiak, Swisher, Wise, Griffey. He'll do fine, especially if Anderson sticks around to help with deffense in the 9th. It's still fairly early. Maybe Getz or Lillibridge will shock the hell out of us, lol.

It's Wise that scares me.
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  #142  
Old 02-17-2009, 06:21 AM
Frater Perdurabo Frater Perdurabo is offline
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I really don't care if the leadoff hitter has a high SLG. The leadoff hitter's job is to take a lot of pitches, get on base, and then steal bases with enough success that the opposing pitcher starts making mistakes and grooving fastballs just to try to stop the runner from stealing.

Given Owens' deficiencies with the glove, and the fact that LF isn't available to "hide" him, if he's in the lineup he needs to be taking a lot of pitches, getting on base at a .360+ clip, stealing with an 80+% success rate, and regularly going first to third or second to home on singles and always scoring on doubles.

If he's not doing that, then he's a #9 hitter. And if he's a #9 hitter, we might as well have BA in there, because BA has more power, fields CF so much better, and runs the bases better.
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  #143  
Old 02-17-2009, 09:00 AM
Tragg Tragg is offline
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Originally Posted by Frater Perdurabo View Post
I really don't care if the leadoff hitter has a high SLG. The leadoff hitter's job is to take a lot of pitches, get on base, and then steal bases with enough success that the opposing pitcher starts making mistakes and grooving fastballs just to try to stop the runner from stealing.
SLG for its own sake is not particularly important at leadoff. But the problem is that if you have a low SLG, you won't get any pitches to take (from any decent pitcher), so you won't walk much.
Thus your obp is dependent on a few bloops dropping in, but mostly on the grounders squeezing through.

We don't need a bunch of steals out of the leadoff hitter anyway. Good baserunning, yes; steals, no.
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  #144  
Old 02-17-2009, 09:03 AM
Eddo144 Eddo144 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Frater Perdurabo View Post
I really don't care if the leadoff hitter has a high SLG. The leadoff hitter's job is to take a lot of pitches, get on base, and then steal bases with enough success that the opposing pitcher starts making mistakes and grooving fastballs just to try to stop the runner from stealing.

Given Owens' deficiencies with the glove, and the fact that LF isn't available to "hide" him, if he's in the lineup he needs to be taking a lot of pitches, getting on base at a .360+ clip, stealing with an 80+% success rate, and regularly going first to third or second to home on singles and always scoring on doubles.

If he's not doing that, then he's a #9 hitter. And if he's a #9 hitter, we might as well have BA in there, because BA has more power, fields CF so much better, and runs the bases better.
Actually, a base stealer who can't hit well is better off as the #9 hitter.

Note: this logic assumes Owens and Getz/Lillibridge have similar OBPs.

When a basestealing threat gets on base, it's better to have him hitting in front of slap hitters, where his speed is better utilized. Owens will score from first on a double just about every time. You want to steal bases in front of a singles hitter, like Getz or Lillibridge, so that he'll be on second base and can score on a single, or move to third on a groundout.

If I have two roughly equal hitters with little power, I'll hit the faster one in front of the slower one so that his speed matters more.

EDIT: Tragg said this much more elegantly and briefly than I did.
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