White Sox Interactive Forums
Sox Clubhouse
 Soxogram: 
GO SOX! DSNB!

Welcome
Go Back   White Sox Interactive Forums > Baseball Discussions > Sox Clubhouse
Home Chat Stats Register Blogs FAQ Calendar Mark Forums Read


Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Old 10-09-2008, 08:59 AM
Thome25 Thome25 is offline
Banned
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: None of your business.
Posts: 4,176
Default Why Haven't The Sox Built A Team The Same Way They Did In The Late 80's Early 90's

I was just thinking about the White Sox teams from the late 80's and early 90's. We had a great home grown players like Jack McDowell, Wilson Alvarez, Alex Fernandez, Jason Bere, Melido Perez, Ray Durham and Robin Ventura. These were the players that got me interested in baseball when I was a 12 or 13 year old kid.

Why haven't we built another team of good homegrown talent by now? Years have passed since these guys have been on the White Sox. You think we would've built a team in this manner again.......even if we found good homegrown players by accident. Why has drafting and player development been so bad since Larry Himes left?

Sure, we've had a handful of homegrown talent since then like Carlos Lee, Magglio Ordonez, Mark Buehrle, and Joe Crede but, those guys are few and far between and we never built a team full of these types of guys like we did back then.

I am in no way complaining either. I have enjoyed the White Sox success over the past 20 years. They've obviously done well for themselves, But, I was just wondering why they abandoned the route they were headed in in the late 80's and early 90's. Was all of the success they've had over the past 20 years the culprit? I.E. Winning records=lower draft choices? Or has their scouting and player development absolutely just dropped the ball?

What do you think? THANKS for posting.

Last edited by Thome25; 10-09-2008 at 09:05 AM.
Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old 10-09-2008, 09:05 AM
guillen4life13 guillen4life13 is offline
WSI Church Elder
 
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: Oak Park
Posts: 3,256
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Thome25 View Post
I was just thinking about the White Sox teams from the late 80's and early 90's. We had a great home grown players like Jack McDowell, Wilson Alvarez, Alex Fernandez, Jason Bere, Melido Perez, Ray Durham and Robin Ventura. These were the players that got me interested in baseball when I was a 12 or 13 year old kid.

Why haven't we built another team of good homegrown talent by now. Years have passed since these guys have been on the White Sox. You think we would've built a team in this manner again.......even if we found good homegrown players by accident. Why has drafting and player development been so bad since Larry Himes left?

Sure we've had a handful of homegrown talent since then like Carlos Lee, Magglio Ordonez, Mark Buehrle, and Joe Crede but, those guys are few and far between and we never built a team full of these types of guys like we did back then.

I am in no way complaining either. I have enjoyed the White Sox success over the past 20 years. They've obviously done well for themselves, But, I was just wondering why they abandoned the route they were headed in the late 80's and early 90's. Was all of the success they've had over the past 20 years the culprit? I.E. Winning records=lower draft choices? Or has their scouting and player development absolutely just dropped the ball?

What do you think? THANKS for posting.
I think the bold statements have something to do with it. I also think that the business of the game has changed so much to where now it's really hard to grow your own team from the ground up while being successful at the major league level. Scott Boras got involved.

The only team that seems to build its own teams (that never seem to go anywhere) are the A's and to a much lesser extent, the Indians. The Rays have done it also but it's not like they had much of a choice.
__________________
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old 10-09-2008, 09:10 AM
barryball barryball is offline
WSI Regular
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: Born on the South Side of Chicago raised in the NW burbs..now live in St. Joe Michigan
Posts: 39
Post

There are a few reasons that come to mind.

1) Back then (80's and early 90's) we were awful and had many years of high draft picks ala the same way the Marlins and Tampa Bay's have built there reams. This includes the Indians and the recent Tiger teams. All of these teams were built based upon good high selection drafts due to previous bad years.

2) Since about or around 2000 we have had one of the ebst records in baseball making the palyoffs in 2000, 2005 and 2008. During that time we have had the players you mentioned (Lee, Crede and Ordonez etc...) but the same depth like we had in the 90's since we have been drafting lower.

3) Even with the lower draft selection we have not drafted all that well thus the orgnization change in our monor leagues over the past two years.

4) In addition we have signed free agents and traded alot of our high ceiling picks (Chris Young, Jeremey Reed, Ryan Sweeney, Gio, de los Santos etc...) as we have been in a competitive "win now" mode.

The only team I see that has really been able to to do both over the same span was the Braves and that seems to have finally fizzled out in the past two years, although they have a good group of young talent just about to hit their stride.
__________________
Whitesox Baseball it's Priceless
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old 10-09-2008, 09:15 AM
oeo oeo is offline
WSI Prelate
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Posts: 16,890
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Thome25 View Post
I was just thinking about the White Sox teams from the late 80's and early 90's. We had a great home grown players like Jack McDowell, Wilson Alvarez, Alex Fernandez, Jason Bere, Melido Perez, Ray Durham and Robin Ventura. These were the players that got me interested in baseball when I was a 12 or 13 year old kid.

Why haven't we built another team of good homegrown talent by now? Years have passed since these guys have been on the White Sox. You think we would've built a team in this manner again.......even if we found good homegrown players by accident. Why has drafting and player development been so bad since Larry Himes left?

Sure, we've had a handful of homegrown talent since then like Carlos Lee, Magglio Ordonez, Mark Buehrle, and Joe Crede but, those guys are few and far between and we never built a team full of these types of guys like we did back then.

I am in no way complaining either. I have enjoyed the White Sox success over the past 20 years. They've obviously done well for themselves, But, I was just wondering why they abandoned the route they were headed in in the late 80's and early 90's. Was all of the success they've had over the past 20 years the culprit? I.E. Winning records=lower draft choices? Or has their scouting and player development absolutely just dropped the ball?

What do you think? THANKS for posting.
Most of our starting position players as recently as 2004 were homegrown (not quite the talent of the early 90s, but homegrown nonetheless). That was the "small market" team, remember? I'm glad they've gone away from that. While I'd like to have more homegrown talent, I don't want to depend solely on that. You need a good mix of young homegrown talent, talent from other organizations, and veterans in order to succeed.

Just ask how this method is working for the Royals, Pirates, etc.
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old 10-09-2008, 09:15 AM
veeter veeter is offline
WSI Church Elder
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Plainfield, IL
Posts: 4,497
Default

I find it amazing you didn't mention Frank Thomas. Frank was the White Sox first round pick in 1989, IIRC. After Frank was promoted in 1990, the Sox were contenders for the next five seasons, and may have won in all in 1994. So yes, they were picking a lot lower during that time. Alex Fernandez, Ventura and some of the guys you mentioned were also high picks because the Sox were really bad in the mid to late 80's. Ray Durham came later, though. IMO with Kenny Williams at the helm, you'll never see a team built from the ground up, because he's impatient. I am too, so I like what he's doing.
__________________
Thank You 2005 Chicago White Sox
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old 10-09-2008, 09:23 AM
Lorenzo Barcelo Lorenzo Barcelo is offline
WSI Personality
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Posts: 584
Default

Maybe Lip or an older poster can confirm or not if Larry Himes could be the reason for the White Sox drafting success in the 80's before Schueler took over.
__________________
I guess I am in Long Island now. News to me.
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old 10-09-2008, 09:24 AM
palehozenychicty palehozenychicty is offline
WSI High Priest
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: NYC
Posts: 6,312
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by oeo View Post
Most of our starting position players as recently as 2004 were homegrown (not quite the talent of the early 90s, but homegrown nonetheless). That was the "small market" team, remember? I'm glad they've gone away from that. While I'd like to have more homegrown talent, I don't want to depend solely on that. You need a good mix of young homegrown talent, talent from other organizations, and veterans in order to succeed.

Just ask how this method is working for the Royals, Pirates, etc.

Indeed. It is like a gumbo of spices and meats that creates a winning team. You need all three factors clicking. I hate to say it, but the Red Sox are doing this better than anyone in baseball right now.

The Royals and Pirates have made awful choices for their picks, and weren't willing to invest much in their farm or in MLB talent. Tampa decided to invest their finances into scouting and development, and it's paid off this season.
__________________
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old 10-09-2008, 09:26 AM
oeo oeo is offline
WSI Prelate
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Posts: 16,890
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by palehozenychicty View Post
Indeed. It is like a gumbo of spices and meats that creates a winning team. You need all three factors clicking. I hate to say it, but the Red Sox are doing this better than anyone in baseball right now.
Agreed. If there is a model organization today, it's the Red Sox. They're not depending on their homegrown talent, depending on trading for it, or depending on paying for it. They're using it all in order to get it done. The Sox, OTOH, depend too much on trading for talent.

Quote:
Tampa decided to invest their finances into scouting and development, and it's paid off this season.
If Tampa wants to sustain that success, though, they're going to have to do more. No #1 overall pick this year, and probably not for quite some time. Then when the time to pay these guys comes around, they have to be willing to pony up. Also, this offseason, for instance, they can't be afraid to trade some of their big pieces from the farm in order to get good veteran pieces to the puzzle (this is a problem with organizations like the Dodgers, Braves, D'Backs, etc.).

Last edited by oeo; 10-09-2008 at 09:37 AM.
Reply With Quote
  #9  
Old 10-09-2008, 09:33 AM
SteveFakeBlood SteveFakeBlood is offline
WSI Regular
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Broward County, FL (native of DuPage County, IL)
Posts: 135
Default

I agree with most of what's been said about the business of baseball having changed so it's harder to keep homegrown talent, etc. But there's also simple dumb luck- from 1987-1990 our first round draft picks were Jack McDowell, Robin Ventura, Frank Thomas and Alex Fernandez. What are the chances that you're going to get four straight first round draft picks that end up being successful for your organization at a major league level? The next four first round draft picks after that were Scott Ruffcorn, Eddie Pearson, Scott Christman and Mark Johnson. And let us not forget Joe Borchard, Jason Sturm, Royce Ring and Kris Honel...

I'm not sure if it's a failure of talent evaluation or just bad luck- but we've had a hard time drafting impact players in the first round for a while now; hopefully, Beckham and Poreda will pan out... but it's not only harder to build your own team from within, but to keep players when they're developed.

In a perfect world, I'd love to see a mostly homegrown Sox team; hell I'd love to see a team with a few players on it that actually grew up in the Chicagoland as Sox fans... but now I'd settle for our farm system bringing up a few and clever manuevering bringing the rest.

~Steve
__________________
The obligatory record at Sox games (lost track before '05):
2005: 3-2
2006: 10-4 (8-3 at the Cell, 1-0 in Anaheim, 1-1 in Minnesota)
2007: 8-10 (7-9 at the Cell, 1-1 in Pittsburgh)
2008: 4-5 (3-4 at the Cell, 1-1 in Arlington)
2009: 1-1 (0-1 at the Cell, 1-0 in St. Pete)
2010: 4-2
2011: 2-1
2012: 1-1
2013: 0-1
2014: 1-1
2015: 0-2 (No games at the Cell , 0-2 in St. Pete)
2016: 0-2 (0-1 at the Cell, 0-1 in St. Pete)
Reply With Quote
  #10  
Old 10-09-2008, 09:44 AM
voodoochile's Avatar
voodoochile voodoochile is offline
Soda Jerk/U.P.W./Lester Pooh Bear
 
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: San Jose, CA
Posts: 54,521
Blog Entries: 9
Default

1986-1989 the Sox went 299-357 and failed to play .500 ball a single time. It was the worst 4 year stint in JR's stewardship of the team.

They had years with 72, 71 and 69 wins during the stretch which happens to coincide with a certain broadcaster tenure as GM.

Fortunately Himes (whoops) - the guy they hired to replace Hawk - had an eye for talent and managed to draft a boatload of it with all the high draft picks.

Still, since Schueler refused to trade for talent, the team was pretty much home grown until KW took over.

Personally, I prefer the current team's makeup to those teams of days gone by because I know we have a shot at a pennant race every single year...
__________________

Riding shotgun on the Sox bandwagon since before there was an Internet...
Reply With Quote
  #11  
Old 10-09-2008, 10:04 AM
kittle42 kittle42 is offline
WSI Prelate
 
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: Lakeview
Posts: 22,669
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by voodoochile View Post
1986-1989 the Sox went 299-357 and failed to play .500 ball a single time. It was the worst 4 year stint in JR's stewardship of the team.
Don't remind me...this was right in the middle of my childhood Sox fandom from age 8-11. Kelly Paris? Russ Morman? Don Wakamatsu? Having to watch my favorite player ever get traded? AHHHHHHHH!!!!!
__________________
Ridiculousness across all sports:

(1) "You have no valid opinion because you never played the game."
(2) "Stats are irrelevant. This guy just doesn't know how to win."
Reply With Quote
  #12  
Old 10-09-2008, 10:06 AM
Luke Luke is offline
WSI Personality
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Logan Square
Posts: 847
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by oeo View Post
Agreed. If there is a model organization today, it's the Red Sox. They're not depending on their homegrown talent, depending on trading for it, or depending on paying for it. They're using it all in order to get it done. The Sox, OTOH, depend too much on trading for talent.



If Tampa wants to sustain that success, though, they're going to have to do more. No #1 overall pick this year, and probably not for quite some time. Then when the time to pay these guys comes around, they have to be willing to pony up. Also, this offseason, for instance, they can't be afraid to trade some of their big pieces from the farm in order to get good veteran pieces to the puzzle (this is a problem with organizations like the Dodgers, Braves, D'Backs, etc.).
To be fair there is a built in advantage that teams like the Red Sox have with the draft, and their ability to sign top picks. It's not hard to identify exceptional talent, like Jacoby Ellsbury, but there was no way the Rays were ever going to sign him. He simply opted not to sign, and went to Boston in the next draft.

Kudos to the Red Sox for capitalizing on the situation, but the MLB draft can be quite unfair to the teams most in need of help.
Reply With Quote
  #13  
Old 10-09-2008, 10:19 AM
Thome25 Thome25 is offline
Banned
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: None of your business.
Posts: 4,176
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by veeter View Post
I find it amazing you didn't mention Frank Thomas. Frank was the White Sox first round pick in 1989, IIRC. After Frank was promoted in 1990, the Sox were contenders for the next five seasons, and may have won in all in 1994. So yes, they were picking a lot lower during that time. Alex Fernandez, Ventura and some of the guys you mentioned were also high picks because the Sox were really bad in the mid to late 80's. Ray Durham came later, though. IMO with Kenny Williams at the helm, you'll never see a team built from the ground up, because he's impatient. I am too, so I like what he's doing.
Trust me, I remembered Frank was one of our draft picks during that era but I just forgot to type his name.
Reply With Quote
  #14  
Old 10-09-2008, 10:28 AM
jabrch jabrch is offline
WSI Prelate
 
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: Highland Park, IL
Posts: 15,202
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Luke View Post
To be fair there is a built in advantage that teams like the Red Sox have with the draft, and their ability to sign top picks. It's not hard to identify exceptional talent, like Jacoby Ellsbury, but there was no way the Rays were ever going to sign him. He simply opted not to sign, and went to Boston in the next draft.

Kudos to the Red Sox for capitalizing on the situation, but the MLB draft can be quite unfair to the teams most in need of help.
Absolutely...The game needs to fix this problem. This, and the international FA situation. It has a strong adverse effect on the balance of power in the game.

Nice to see Tampa do what it has done so far this season - but it took 10 straight years of 70 or fewer wins, last place finishes in 9 of those 10, and lots of miserable baseball teams to assemble that kind of talent by their own drafts, and by trading vets for prospects.

There's a lack of fairness to the game in many ways. This is one of them. It is also something that is fixable. This isn't like MLB FA which is probably so beyond repair that it just is what it is.
__________________
Ha Ha Ha!!!!!
Reply With Quote
  #15  
Old 10-09-2008, 10:30 AM
MisterB MisterB is offline
WSI Church Elder
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: Hayward, CA
Posts: 2,828
Default

The Rays being built on high first round picks is an exaggeration. They have 3 of their first round picks on the roster right now: Longoria, Upton and Baldelli (who due to his medical condition didn't contribute all that much). The other players that came up through the Rays' system: Crawford (2nd round), Shields (16th), Sonnanstine (13th), and Hammel (10th). The rest of the roster came from elsewhere.
__________________
There were never any 'good old days'
They are today, they are tomorrow
It's a stupid thing we say
Cursing tomorrow with sorrow


Gogol Bordello - "Ultimate"
Reply With Quote
Reply


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



Forum Jump




All times are GMT -5. The time now is 12:30 PM.




Design by: Michelle

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2018, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Site-specific editorial/photos Copyright ©2001 - 2008 White Sox Interactive. All rights reserved.