9/1 Games

[cws05champ]

Originally Posted by UofCSoxFan

Jared Washborn out of Wisconsin Oshkosh was either completely undrafted or drafted late as well. Again, I don't really mind the courtousy pick late...but the fact that he is still in the system after 2 years (and is progressing no less) is a different story to me.

It's somewhat ironic that you mention Piazza, since he was drafted as a favor to Tommy LaSorda (who was his godfather). The story goes that Piazza never caught before entering the Dodgers minor league system, but he said he had catching experiance, knowing that being a backup catcher was really his only chance to stick. Of course he made the most out of his gift opportunity (hitting above .182 I would assume) and went on to become the best offesnive catcher of all time.

ALBERT PUJOLS. 13th round selection for the Cardinals in 1999. This drafting in MLB is not an exact science but you think the manager and GM would know if their kids have the talent to make it to the bigs or at least be an organizatinal depth player. I don't know their true thoughts on their kids, but I have my own opinion....which pretty much echos everyone here.

[Hagan]

I still think they will send Beckham to Instructs in Phoenix for a few weeks before he starts in the AFL. When he was being interviewed by DJ he dad say he'd go there when the season ends for instructs and the AFL. I would imagine this would be the case with him signing so late to get some more instruction and more time on the field.

[oeo]

Originally Posted by UofCSoxFan

I'm not joking at all. I think its a joke the Oney is in this organization to begin with, let along being promoted to AAA, even for the last day of the year. This is pro baseball. This isn't feel good everyone get's a trophy ball.

In the grand scheme of things it really doesn't matter, you're right. But no one seems to care what kind of message this sends to everyone else in the organization that is looking to move up.

If I was a player in AA I'd be pretty pissed about this as I patiently wait my chance while Oney ".182" Guillen gets rewarded with a prmotion. The minor leagues should be a meritocracy....this nepotism bull**** has no place.

So yes I'm serious. It pisses me off when underserving people get rewarded becuase of who they know, or for other rasons than their actual skill set. It happens all the time in life so people seem immune to it....doesn't make it right though.

Originally Posted by Adele H

among others were late-round picks. 6th round where KW's son was taken? PLenty of good major leaguers came from that over the years, I am just too lazy to look it up.

Kenny Williams Jr. was also projected as a 9th round pick.

I just don't get all this whining. Yeah, there's a chance we could have gotten a good player there, but the chance was slim to none. All the continued whining over that pick is annoying as hell. I know we had a Hall of Famer all but wrapped up there, but let it go.

[EMachine10]

Originally Posted by oeo

Kenny Williams Jr. was also projected as a 9th round pick.

I just don't get all this whining. Yeah, there's a chance we could have gotten a good player there, but the chance was slim to none. All the continued whining over that pick is annoying as hell. I know we had a Hall of Famer all but wrapped up there, but let it go.

McCarthy, right?

[UofCSoxFan]

Originally Posted by oeo

Kenny Williams Jr. was also projected as a 9th round pick.

I just don't get all this whining. Yeah, there's a chance we could have gotten a good player there, but the chance was slim to none. All the continued whining over that pick is annoying as hell. I know we had a Hall of Famer all but wrapped up there, but let it go.

The chance was slim to none that we'd get a good player in the 6th round? You're joking right. This isn't like the NFL draft where the sixth round is total garbage.

Other sixth round picks: Jaime Moyer, Lance Johnson, Deion Sanders, Tom Gordon, Jim Edmonds (7th round actually), Eric Karros (the 1992 Rookie of the Year), Troy Percival, Joe Nathan, Tim Hudson, J.J. Putz, John Maine, Pat Neshak, Ryan Braun, Kevin Kouzmanoff, and Matt Kemp.

Players taken even later:
Jermaine Dye taken in the 17th round. Roy Oswalt 23 round. Russell Martin 17th round. Jason Bay 22nd round. Dan Uggla 11th round. Nate McClouth 25th round. These are just a few I've found doing 5 minutes of research.

EVERY YEAR dozens of players taken after the 6th round become starters on major league teams. Some become all stars. You cannot throw away these picks.

To me its a matter of principle anyway. In life you should have to earn your own way, not be handed something. I'm sorry you disagree with this. I don't mind the Kenny Williams pick because at least he was a minor league talent. Oney was not and gets special treatment because of who his father is.

I'd also be a bit more lenient if we had a minor league system that didn't need to be totaly rebuilt. It'd be nice to be able to bring someone up in a pennant race that could help out...like you know every other team we are competing against. We brought up Jerry Owens and a bunc of AAAA relief pithers. We don't have a fifth starter. That is why I have a problem with the Oney Guillen summer baseball camp experience.

[oeo]

Originally Posted by UofCSoxFan

The chance was slim to none that we'd get a good player in the 6th round? You're joking right. This isn't like the NFL draft where the sixth round is total garbage.

Other sixth round picks: Jaime Moyer, Lance Johnson, Deion Sanders, Tom Gordon, Jim Edmonds (7th round actually), Eric Karros (the 1992 Rookie of the Year), Troy Percival, Joe Nathan, Tim Hudson, J.J. Putz, John Maine, Pat Neshak, Ryan Braun, Kevin Kouzmanoff, and Matt Kemp.

Players taken even later:
Jermaine Dye taken in the 17th round. Roy Oswalt 23 round. Russell Martin 17th round. Jason Bay 22nd round. Dan Uggla 11th round. Nate McClouth 25th round. These are just a few I've found doing 5 minutes of research.

EVERY YEAR dozens of players taken after the 6th round become starters on major league teams. Some become all stars. You cannot throw away these picks.

LOL, you keep listing players. Still doesn't change the fact that the MLB draft is a total crapshoot, even in the first round a lot of times. You're right, it's not like the NFL draft: it's much more difficult. The chances that we drafted a major league player in that sixth round are very, very small.

Here's another one of these for you:

To me its a matter of principle anyway. In life you should have to earn your own way, not be handed something. I'm sorry you disagree with this. I don't mind the Kenny Williams pick because at least he was a minor league talent. Oney was not and gets special treatment because of who his father is.

If your daddy was a manager, or even some way affiliated with a major league organization, you would get drafted too. It happens all around baseball. You're overreacting, and you look like a fool for doing it.

I'd also be a bit more lenient if we had a minor league system that didn't need to be totaly rebuilt. It'd be nice to be able to bring someone up in a pennant race that could help out...like you know every other team we are competing against. We brought up Jerry Owens and a bunc of AAAA relief pithers. We don't have a fifth starter. That is why I have a problem with the Oney Guillen summer baseball camp experience.

Oney Guillen is really killing the minor league system. I could just imagine where would be without him: the same place.

[Frater Perdurabo]

I don't think KW drafted his son because of nepotism.

I think KW drafted his son because he really thinks his son could develop into a great MLB ballplayer.

[jabrch]

Originally Posted by Hagan

I think we all know why Oney was drafted. It's not as if we missed a great opportunity to pick someone else is he was taken about as late as possible.

When Oney is 70 and playing with his grandkids I think bragging about going 0 for whatever in a AAA game in 2008 will be the last thing he brings up.

He isn't taken at bats away from anyone, they aren't gonna move people up from Birmingham for a day. They start the playoffs in 2 days. And Winston Salem is battling for a playoff spot as they still have 4 more games in the season. Plus Oney serves as a mentor/ coach for a lot of the young latins in the organization. He has his sights on coaching and is a great communicator with the younger members of the organization.

I think you guys just need to get over it!

KW Jr. is another entirely different issue. He was a 6th rounder and got a big bonus and has spent his entire first year on the DL. If that pick doesn't work out than I could understand some of the criticism.

That's the key piece there... If it was anyone other than KWJR, on the DL with a shoulder injury, there wouldn't be this much doucebaggery. But people constantly look for reasons to hate management for whatever reason.

[UofCSoxFan]

Originally Posted by oeo

LOL, you keep listing players. Still doesn't change the fact that the MLB draft is a total crapshoot, even in the first round a lot of times. You're right, it's not like the NFL draft: it's much more difficult. The chances that we drafted a major league player in that sixth round are very, very small.

Here's another one of these for you:



If your daddy was a manager, or even some way affiliated with a major league organization, you would get drafted too. It happens all around baseball. You're overreacting, and you look like a fool for doing it.

Oney Guillen is really killing the minor league system. I could just imagine where would be without him: the same place.

You're completely missing my point.

If you don't see the difference between curtousey drafting a family member and keeping him in your minor league system for two years (and promoting him to AAA no less) then I don't know what to tell you. The difference is huge.

The fact that the major league draft is hard doesn't mean you don't try to draft the best players and instead take friends and family....it's an argument that you try to make every pick count because of the low "hit" rate. The reason I'm listing players is that your statement "chance is slim to none" that we'll find anyone outside the first few rounds is absurd. Doing an unscientific look at past 6th round drafts on baseball-reference.com every year there are between 5 and 10 players that make the major leagues. That's 20% to 33%...which means that these players aren't sure fire, but it certainly isn't like winning the lottery either. You might as well take someone with potential versus someone that was a mediocre Division III player.

Your arguement can be summed up as follows: 1) It's OK for people to be judged by who they know over their abilities in a game that is judged soley on winning and losing. 2) If something is difficult, it's a justification for not putting forth your best effort. That's a great way to run an organization.

And to Frater's point about KW Jr. I agree. That wasn't a nepotism pick (although the familiarity with KW Jr. certainly played a roll as the Sox undoubtedly where familiar with his abilities). They think he has major league potential..which he may. After all, Wichita State is a helluva better program than North Park which is a very weak division III team (we beat them by 20 runs my sophomore year). I have a much greater issue that Guillen is still in this organization than the fact that we drafted KW Jr. in the 6th round.

Oney in the organization is the result 100% of who his father is. To me, it's unethical that he is taking the spot of someone that deserves to be there...even if it's the final roster spot on the rookie ball team.

KW Jr. in the organization is the result of what may or may not be a reach of draft pick....which is no different than the Joe Borchards and Chris Snopeks of the world. The kid has talent and would have been taken by another team had the Sox not done so. That's the difference.

I have no problem drafting Sox family members if they are good. Hell, Guillen's kid that's in high school now is likely a first round pick. Take him in a heartbeat if you think he'll improve the team and I won't have a problem with it at all.

And yes I know this isn't a Sox only phenomenon. Piazza was drafted because his godfather was Tommy Lasorda. Ken Macha (from the A's) son was drafted out of Case Western (another DIII school)...of course he was a DIII All American and hit over .400 that year. The thing is with these family member picks is they don't stick around for mutliple years when it is clear that they can't produce. If they can, they are treated like everyone else and progress based on their abilities. I would have loved for Oney to have taken his opportunity and looked even average to justify his roster spot. It would have been a great story. This isn't fantasy baseball camp though. He has no business in professional baseball.

[Adele_H]

Originally Posted by oeo

I just don't get all this whining. Yeah, there's a chance we could have gotten a good player there, but the chance was slim to none. .

I really don't care one way or another given our recent draft & development record.... But you're wrong.

A ton of good players went after the "lottery" phase of the 1st round throughout baseball - including quite a few in the 4-9 rounds. I remember being suprised by the quality of non-Top 10 picks, a veritable who's who.

[EMachine10]

Originally Posted by Adele_H

I really don't care one way or another given our recent draft & development record.... But you're wrong.

A ton of good players went after the "lottery" phase of the 1st round throughout baseball - including quite a few in the 4-9 rounds. I remember being suprised by the quality of non-Top 10 picks, a veritable who's who.

Oney was drafted with the 1102nd overall pick in round 36. Not rounds 4-9. Oney is who this argument has started upon. Not KWJr. Junior Williams was projected to go somewhere within the first 10 rounds or so. Did we reach a little for him, perhaps. But our organization has complained about the lack of athleticism in regards to our organizational depth, and that was the determining factor in drafting Williams. Not personal interest. Did it contribute somewhat? Yeah, I'd say. But we did not draft him solely based on name recognition. If he weren't hurt and if he were hitting .350, noboby would care that we drafted Kenny's son. Too many people find anything to complain about. I'm sure many of you would complain if Beckham got hurt and didn't perform well in his pro debut. Give it a rest.

Back to the original point about Oney, it's a moot point. I'm sure his 3 at bats in Charlotte did not raise an eyebrow outside of this message board.

[jabrch]

Originally Posted by EMachine10

Back to the original point about Oney, it's a moot point. I'm sure his 3 at bats in Charlotte did not raise an eyebrow outside of this message board.

There are loads of ignorant people out there - they don't JUST come to WSI.

[rdivaldi]

Originally Posted by Adele_H

I really don't care one way or another given our recent draft & development record....

After this year I think it's time for some of the "our development sucks" crowd to take another look. There were some promising young players on our squad that are products of our system. We're improving and the future is looking good.