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  #16  
Old 08-10-2008, 08:51 PM
Martinigirl Martinigirl is offline
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Originally Posted by soltrain21 View Post
Kenny sounds like a real jerk sometimes.
What is he supposed to say? "We need him desperately! We will pay whatever he demands!" That is hardly bargaining from a position of strength.

Wasn't Beckham a senior? What is he going to do, sit out a year? I would assume they will come to an agreement.
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  #17  
Old 08-10-2008, 08:53 PM
The Immigrant The Immigrant is offline
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Originally Posted by soltrain21 View Post
kenny sounds like a real jerk sometimes.
It's called negotiating leverage. It's how business gets done in the real world.
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  #18  
Old 08-10-2008, 09:13 PM
California Sox California Sox is offline
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Originally Posted by Martinigirl View Post
What is he supposed to say? "We need him desperately! We will pay whatever he demands!" That is hardly bargaining from a position of strength.

Wasn't Beckham a senior? What is he going to do, sit out a year? I would assume they will come to an agreement.
Beckham is a junior. And, no, he would probably not go back to school. He could take the JD Drew route and play independent ball, though. I agree, though, that it is in the kid's best interest to sign. I believe Danks will sign too. If not, though, this draft will have been a disaster for the Sox.
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  #19  
Old 08-10-2008, 10:11 PM
soltrain21 soltrain21 is offline
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Originally Posted by Martinigirl View Post
What is he supposed to say? "We need him desperately! We will pay whatever he demands!" That is hardly bargaining from a position of strength.

Wasn't Beckham a senior? What is he going to do, sit out a year? I would assume they will come to an agreement.
I wasn't just talking about this situation. I was talking as a whole. With that being said, I hate how we handle draft picks. There is a reason our minor leagues really blow, and this one of them.
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  #20  
Old 08-11-2008, 12:29 AM
jabrch jabrch is offline
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Only 3 of the top 11 picks have been signed, and 2 of them were HS kids.

Let's just sit back, relax, and see how this plays out.
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  #21  
Old 08-11-2008, 12:32 AM
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Originally Posted by jabrch View Post
Only 3 of the top 11 picks have been signed, and 2 of them were HS kids.

Let's just sit back, relax, and see how this plays out.
How many of those unsigned 8 are Boras clients?
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  #22  
Old 08-11-2008, 12:47 AM
jabrch jabrch is offline
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How many of those unsigned 8 are Boras clients?
Just 2...Alvarez, Hosmer

Unless I am missing someone.
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  #23  
Old 08-11-2008, 01:03 AM
UofCSoxFan UofCSoxFan is offline
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Originally Posted by soltrain21 View Post
I wasn't just talking about this situation. I was talking as a whole. With that being said, I hate how we handle draft picks. There is a reason our minor leagues really blow, and this one of them.
Kenny Williams being a jerk is not the reason our minor leagues blow. It's a combination of poor scouting and trading some good prospects for major league talent.
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  #24  
Old 08-11-2008, 01:09 AM
jabrch jabrch is offline
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Originally Posted by UofCSoxFan View Post
Kenny Williams being a jerk is not the reason our minor leagues blow. It's a combination of poor scouting and trading some good prospects for major league talent.
Who did we trade who we are currently missing? Chris Young is hitting .232/.297/.418 (incidentally, that's about the same as his career #s).

Williams uses parts in the farm that are either overrated or redundant in trades. And he wins out much more often than he loses.
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  #25  
Old 08-11-2008, 02:03 AM
UofCSoxFan UofCSoxFan is offline
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Originally Posted by jabrch View Post
Who did we trade who we are currently missing? Chris Young is hitting .232/.297/.418 (incidentally, that's about the same as his career #s).

Williams uses parts in the farm that are either overrated or redundant in trades. And he wins out much more often than he loses.
I'm not saying we miss anyone. I was just responding to a criticism that our minor league system is depleated.

The Rays and Brewers for years have had great minor league systems and where has that gotten them?

I much rather have a top major league team. For small market teams, developing your own talent is vital. For teams like the Sox, who do have the ability to bring in free agents and take on salary, it is less important for sure.

I think we're on the same page.
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  #26  
Old 08-11-2008, 02:25 AM
Domeshot17 Domeshot17 is offline
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We better not let him slide away. There is basically a 1a-1b-1c-1d as to why our minors suck, all about even.

1 (a) Our scouting department is terrible. It has been shown and proven. Add to that they do stupid things like blow draft picks on family members.

1 (b) We are working now with Buddy Bell, but there has been no idea on how to develop a player in the minors.

1 (c) Im not huge into the Sox are cheap crap with MLB talent, but the truth is they got burned once by Borchard and have refused to ante up since. They don't draft guys who fall and are tough signs, and pass on them for easy signs. This was the case with Broadway (who looks like a 5th sp/spot starter/long reliever at best) Mcculloch (never will make the pros) and Poreda (good hard thrower, probably a lefty set up in the future with lack of a pitching arsenal). They won't work with any Boras client, they are stubborn, and I still think the choice to draft Poreda over Porcello is really going to haunt us.

1(d) Trading prospects for talent. Some times you win (Reed for Freddy), Sometimes you come out about even (Javy for Young) and sometimes you lose (Swish for gio and DLS). That has taken its toll. The funny thing is the 1 year we actually won the series (and made the playoffs under Kenny), we didn't do a hell of a lot with prospect trading. Freddy was a carry over move, but Loaiza got us Jose, Lee got us Pods and money for FA. It is also the only year Kenny has been any kind of player in FA (although Dye and AJ were both considered high risk moves at the time, with Dye's injury history and AJ's rep, clearly both were great gambles).

Kenny is a good GM. He has that salesman type attitude, he is hungry to win, and depending how you judge him he has done a pretty good job (1 world series title huge, only 1 playoff appearance, a few really bad years). But when it comes down to how he acts, I think he needs to tighten up more than Ozzie (I think Kenny tends to drive a lot of FA's away, rubbing players the wrong way) and when it comes to the minor leagues, he doesn't have a clue (but atleast he finally admitted this and brought in Bell!!!).

I also don't think the Wilder scandal had a huge impact on the farm. What it sounds like he was doing was going into other countries with so much money to sign guys with, and convincing them to sign for less or overstating his demands to the Sox and pocketing the rest. It might have been huge, but not enough is known yet.

We have to get Beckham signed, and I think we will. Kenny knows he will be the only prospect in the minors worth a damn next year for us. He has a chance to be a top 20 spec and a future corner stone player, and Im sure Buddy Bell is chomping at the bit to get a guy like him in our system. As for Danks I'm not worried either way. He got drafted high by us because he is a guy Kenny chased for a while. He was a major disappointment in College (next to no power, good speed, fair contact). Maybe he can work it out and find it in the minors, but I'm not holding my breath, he has a lot of work to do.
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  #27  
Old 08-11-2008, 02:41 PM
munchman33 munchman33 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jabrch View Post
Who did we trade who we are currently missing? Chris Young is hitting .232/.297/.418 (incidentally, that's about the same as his career #s).

Williams uses parts in the farm that are either overrated or redundant in trades. And he wins out much more often than he loses.
But it isn't about what the prospect becomes, it's about getting a fair market value for your prospects, which every other general manager seems to grasp. Kenny has had a tendancy to fall in love with incomplete players and spend the farm to get them, instead of their market value.

As for the Chris Young thing....sometimes trades work both ways. That wasn't a bad deal.
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  #28  
Old 08-11-2008, 02:44 PM
munchman33 munchman33 is offline
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Originally Posted by Martinigirl View Post
What is he supposed to say? "We need him desperately! We will pay whatever he demands!" That is hardly bargaining from a position of strength.

Wasn't Beckham a senior? What is he going to do, sit out a year? I would assume they will come to an agreement.
Lots of players play in an independant leauge to cash in the next year.
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  #29  
Old 08-11-2008, 03:22 PM
btrain929
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Originally Posted by munchman33 View Post
Lots of players play in an independant leauge to cash in the next year.
I'm not trying to be a smart ass, but outside of JD Drew, I haven't heard of many situations of that happening. But that could be just me not hearing about a lot of them. Can you tell me a few of the players that did go that route, and then cashed in the next year?
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  #30  
Old 08-11-2008, 04:48 PM
Max Power Max Power is offline
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Originally Posted by btrain929 View Post
I'm not trying to be a smart ass, but outside of JD Drew, I haven't heard of many situations of that happening. But that could be just me not hearing about a lot of them. Can you tell me a few of the players that did go that route, and then cashed in the next year?
Didn't Luke Hochevar of the Royals go that route and end up being picked pretty high? Him and Drew are the only ones I can think of where that strategy really panned out.

EDIT: In 2005 Hochevar was drafted in the 39th round by the Dodgers, didn't sign, played in an independent league, and was picked #1 by the Royals the next year.
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