White Sox Interactive Forums
What's The Score?

Welcome
Go Back   White Sox Interactive Forums > Baseball Discussions > What's The Score?
Home Chat Stats Register Blogs FAQ Calendar Mark Forums Read


Closed Thread
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #61  
Old 02-28-2018, 03:13 PM
ChiSoxNationPres ChiSoxNationPres is offline
WSI Personality
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Chicago
Posts: 767
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by A. Cavatica View Post
I think the calls to sign Moustakas are hasty and ill-considered.

Pro Moustakas:
He is a better 3B than who they currently have in house, or are likely to have in the next two years, given Burger's injury.

He bats lefty.

Con:
2018 isn't going to be matter. Why pay Moustakas for 2018? They might as well keep running Sanchez, Saladino, Davidson, even Delmonico out there.

They would have to give up a second-round pick. A high second-round pick is nothing to sneeze at; there will be players better than Burger out there for the taking.

Moustakas would not be a flip candidate. To compensate for the loss of the pick and fill the hole that was just created, they should sign him for at least 3 years. That would mean he's earning money that could be used for Machado, Arenado, Donaldson. Those players are difference-makers; Moustakas is not.

If you do manage to sign a Machado-caliber 3B, what do you do with Moustakas? His value is tied to him hitting pretty well while playing a decent third base. His salary would be awfully high for a reserve, especially as he ages.

It would be far better to trade for a young 3B. We finally have the chips to do so.

http://m.mlb.com/prospects/2018?list=3b

I'm on the fence with signing Moustakas, but there is a lot to question with your cons.

Yes, the Sox won't contend in '18. But what good is there in trotting Sanchez, Davidson, and Saladino out there? They are not future starters on a playoff team. Period. Delmonico isn't even a 3b.

There are better players than Burger to be had in the early second round?
What? Was Burger grossly over valued last draft or am I missing something? If the Sox indeed sign Moustakas, then if it's a one year deal, then they can flip for a player or players worth more than a second rounder. If it's a 3 year deal, then giving up a measly second rounder for a middle of the order 3b is WELL worth it. But I think you agree with that. Also agree that he isn't too much of a difference maker, but does he have to be? If we sign him, that pretty much means at a discount.

As many have pointed out, Machado is a SS. Arenado is 2 years away and shouldn't be in anyones plans, Donaldson is well over 30 and doesn't really make sense for us. If its a 3 year deal for Moustakas, then it likely will be for like 15 mil a year, which won't take them out of a big ticket FA.

Your last bit is something that is intriguing to me as well. A guy like Andujar could become available if the Yanks get Machado and have too many infielders.
  #62  
Old 02-28-2018, 04:28 PM
DumpJerry's Avatar
DumpJerry DumpJerry is offline
Tom Feargal Hagen
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: The hearts and minds of Sox fans on 10-26-05
Posts: 27,547
Default

I hear Brooks Robinson is available.
__________________


2020....2020.....2020....2020....2020.....
  #63  
Old 02-28-2018, 04:50 PM
ChiSoxNationPres ChiSoxNationPres is offline
WSI Personality
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Chicago
Posts: 767
Default

Another thing: Who will be the 3b in '19 or '20? We have to take a look at who is available now, and in the following offseasons and think about realistic options. We have no one in our system that will be ready then, and the Sox should be in need of a playoff caliber 3b then. Just banking on signing on Donaldson, Arenado, Rendon, or another top guy isn't setting yourself up for success. Seems like either Moustakas or trading for someone are the best and most realistic options for '19 and beyond. Yandy Diaz is a trade candidate I like from the Tribe, is an example we can probably get. Not suggesting he is a long term solution, just that he is a guy we could acquire and has the upside to be a starter.

Last edited by ChiSoxNationPres; 02-28-2018 at 04:59 PM.
  #64  
Old 02-28-2018, 07:18 PM
A. Cavatica A. Cavatica is offline
Chief Skeptic and 2015 Preseason Predictions Contest Winner
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Posts: 6,494
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by ChiSoxNationPres View Post
Yes, the Sox won't contend in '18. But what good is there in trotting Sanchez, Davidson, and Saladino out there? They are not future starters on a playoff team. Period. Delmonico isn't even a 3b.
Sanchez was a 3.5 WAR player last year, at age 25. Moose has only had one season above 3.5 WAR in his career. Last year he was a 1.8 WAR player, and when he was 25, he was a 0.4 WAR player. Sanchez is unquestionably a better player right now, and still improving.

Factor in that Saladino is a better fielder than Moustakas, Davidson has more power, and Delmonico is probably a better overall hitter and I don't know what Moustakas adds.

(And Delmonico has played 2531 innings at third in his career, more than anywhere else. He's not smooth, but he could play it well enough to platoon.)

Quote:
Originally Posted by ChiSoxNationPres View Post
There are better players than Burger to be had in the early second round?
What? Was Burger grossly over valued last draft or am I missing something?
Burger was not expected to go as high as the Sox picked him. And there are always great players to be drafted after the first round, if you can find them.

The Rockies got Nolan Arenado in the 2nd round in 2009. Chase Headley, Xavier Nady, Scott Rolen, Troy Glaus were all drafted in the 2nd round.

Just looking at top third base prospects, the Brewers got Lucas Erceg in the second round, the Nationals got Sheldon Neuse, the Rockies got Ryan McMahon. The Cardinals got Carson Kelly in the 2nd and converted him to a catcher, where he's much more valuable.

That's not even looking at other positions and lower rounds!

Quote:
Originally Posted by ChiSoxNationPres View Post
If the Sox indeed sign Moustakas, then if it's a one year deal, then they can flip for a player or players worth more than a second rounder. If it's a 3 year deal, then giving up a measly second rounder for a middle of the order 3b is WELL worth it. But I think you agree with that. Also agree that he isn't too much of a difference maker, but does he have to be? If we sign him, that pretty much means at a discount.
I don't agree with your evaluation of Moustakas. I don't think he's a middle of the order 3B. I don't even think he's as good as Yolmer Sanchez. There's a reason teams are not fighting to sign him.

There's no way I risk a second round pick on the possibility of being able to flip him for more than a second round pick. Won't happen.
  #65  
Old 02-28-2018, 09:23 PM
Tragg Tragg is offline
WSI Prelate
 
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: Gonzales LA
Posts: 14,880
Blog Entries: 2
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by ChiSoxNationPres View Post
Seems like either Moustakas or trading for someone are the best and most realistic options for '19 and beyond.
Moustakas is a bottom 4 hitter on a playoff team*. And by the time the Sox are of that level, he may be worse than that. Way too early to sign slightly above average players (which Davidson, Yolmer and a number of others could be anyway).

*I realize he was a 3/4 hitter on the Royals...that was a few years ago, and that team relied on defense, solid starters and a great pen. On the Dodgers or Astros, he probably wouldn't be a top 8 hitter.
  #66  
Old 02-28-2018, 09:56 PM
A. Cavatica A. Cavatica is offline
Chief Skeptic and 2015 Preseason Predictions Contest Winner
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Posts: 6,494
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tragg View Post
...slightly above average players (which Davidson, Yolmer and a number of others could be anyway).
I don't see that happening with Davidson. He was a negative WAR player last year, and given his age, he's not likely to improve much.
  #67  
Old 02-28-2018, 10:08 PM
kittle42 kittle42 is offline
WSI Prelate
 
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: Lakeview
Posts: 22,766
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by A. Cavatica View Post
I don't see that happening with Davidson. He was a negative WAR player last year, and given his age, he's not likely to improve much.
Matt Davidson will be one of the worst regulars in an opening day lineup in MLB this year.
__________________
Ridiculousness across all sports:

(1) "You have no valid opinion because you never played the game."
(2) "Stats are irrelevant. This guy just doesn't know how to win."
  #68  
Old 03-01-2018, 11:23 AM
Domeshot17 Domeshot17 is offline
WSI High Priest
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Plainfield
Posts: 11,617
Default

no offense but Davidson and Yolmer are not slightly above players, nor will they ever likely be.
__________________
  #69  
Old 03-01-2018, 12:01 PM
cards press box cards press box is offline
WSI Church Elder
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Posts: 2,695
Default

What of no team signs Moustakas until after the June 2018 amateur draft. In that event, the team that signs him would not forfeit their second highest draft pick.

It seems to me that the Sox are going to want to keep that pick and rightly so. But if the Sox could sign Moustakas in June for a 2-3 year deal and not forfeit the draft pick, would posters feel differently about the Sox signing him?
  #70  
Old 03-01-2018, 12:58 PM
kittle42 kittle42 is offline
WSI Prelate
 
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: Lakeview
Posts: 22,766
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Domeshot17 View Post
no offense but Davidson and Yolmer are not slightly above players, nor will they ever likely be.
Average > Yolmer Sanchez > Matt Davidson
  #71  
Old 03-01-2018, 01:05 PM
JB98's Avatar
JB98 JB98 is offline
WSI Guru
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Wheeling, IL
Posts: 30,226
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by kittle42 View Post
Average > Yolmer Sanchez > Matt Davidson
Davidson's .260 OBP and strikeout-to-walk ratio were ugly last season. I don't see much of a future for him. Even the Adam Dunn comparisons don't fly. At least Dunn would take his walks.
__________________
JB's attendance record:
2004: 14-5; 2005: 16-8; 2006: 19-10; 2007: 8-12; 2008: 15-7; 2009: 6-13; 2010: 12-11; 2011: 9-8; 2012: 11-7; 2013: 8-9; 2014: 7-9; 2015: 10-10; 2016: 13-10; 2017: 8-5; 2018: 2-7; Total: 158-131.
Next game: Aug. 19 vs. Kansas City

R
ead my baseball blog: http://thebaseballkid98.blogspot.com/

  #72  
Old 03-01-2018, 01:09 PM
kittle42 kittle42 is offline
WSI Prelate
 
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: Lakeview
Posts: 22,766
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by JB98 View Post
Davidson's .260 OBP and strikeout-to-walk ratio were ugly last season. I don't see much of a future for him. Even the Adam Dunn comparisons don't fly. At least Dunn would take his walks.
There's an Adam Dunn comparison to be had. 2011 Adam Dunn, that is.
  #73  
Old 03-01-2018, 02:30 PM
ChiSoxNationPres ChiSoxNationPres is offline
WSI Personality
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Chicago
Posts: 767
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by A. Cavatica View Post
Sanchez was a 3.5 WAR player last year, at age 25. Moose has only had one season above 3.5 WAR in his career. Last year he was a 1.8 WAR player, and when he was 25, he was a 0.4 WAR player. Sanchez is unquestionably a better player right now, and still improving.


Factor in that Saladino is a better fielder than Moustakas, Davidson has more power, and Delmonico is probably a better overall hitter and I don't know what Moustakas adds.


(And Delmonico has played 2531 innings at third in his career, more than anywhere else. He's not smooth, but he could play it well enough to platoon.)


Burger was not expected to go as high as the Sox picked him. And there are always great players to be drafted after the first round, if you can find them.


The Rockies got Nolan Arenado in the 2nd round in 2009. Chase Headley, Xavier Nady, Scott Rolen, Troy Glaus were all drafted in the 2nd round.

Just looking at top third base prospects, the Brewers got Lucas Erceg in the second round, the Nationals got Sheldon Neuse, the Rockies got Ryan McMahon. The Cardinals got Carson Kelly in the 2nd and converted him to a catcher, where he's much more valuable.

That's not even looking at other positions and lower rounds!


I don't agree with your evaluation of Moustakas. I don't think he's a middle of the order 3B. I don't even think he's as good as Yolmer Sanchez. There's a reason teams are not fighting to sign him.


There's no way I risk a second round pick on the possibility of being able to flip him for more than a second round pick. Won't happen.

Yes, Sanchez was a 3.5 WAR player last year. But most of that was from him playing 2nd the majority of his games, not 3rd. Those are skewed numbers. What about Sanchez's previous years? Terrible. He is a fine utility player and I like his defense, but under no circumstances would any team want him as their starting 3b the next 3 seasons. Unquestionably better? I would say zero teams would prefer Sanchez starting at 3b over Moustakas. He also has been the 3b on a team that went to the WS twice.

Davidson has more power? You are aware that Moustakas had 38 bombs last year right? Also his slugging percentage was way higher.

How many games has Delmonico played 3b in the majors? He's a bad defender.

Tons of mocks had Burger in the top 20.

You just cherry-picked good players or prospects from the last 25 years.... what about the other 1000 bad players taken during the second round during that span? The second round is a total crapshoot, as is the MLB draft in general pretty much.

He would hopefully settle in as a 6-7 hitter on the team in '19-20. Keep in mind that Carl Everett was the Sox number 3 hitter in 2005.... Also when was the last Sox 3b to have an OPS over .800? Moustakas is a pretty decent bet for that. Yolmer is a faster runner and better defender for sure, but that's about it. Again, he is a nice utility guy. But serious question: Do you want him as the starting 3b when the Sox are contending? Assuming he puts up similar numbers.

You are far more likely to get a prospect that turns out to be a MLB regular by trading for one that's played in the minors than drafting one. Second round picks typically don't amount to much.
  #74  
Old 03-01-2018, 02:34 PM
FielderJones's Avatar
FielderJones FielderJones is offline
WSI Village Atheist
 
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Clarendon Hills
Posts: 5,905
Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by ChiSoxNationPres View Post
Delmonico isn't even a 3b.


http://www.milb.com/player/index.jsp...ng/2018/MINORS

2299 MiLB innings at 3B, more than all other positions combined.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ChiSoxNationPres View Post
How many games has Delmonico played 3b in the majors?
He just got here. 269 games in the minors.
  #75  
Old 03-01-2018, 02:52 PM
Chez's Avatar
Chez Chez is offline
WSI High Priest
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: Clarendon Hills
Posts: 6,517
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by ChiSoxNationPres View Post
Yes, Sanchez was a 3.5 WAR player last year. But most of that was from him playing 2nd the majority of his games, not 3rd. Those are skewed numbers. What about Sanchez's previous years? Terrible. He is a fine utility player and I like his defense, but under no circumstances would any team want him as their starting 3b the next 3 seasons. Unquestionably better? I would say zero teams would prefer Sanchez starting at 3b over Moustakas. He also has been the 3b on a team that went to the WS twice.

Davidson has more power? You are aware that Moustakas had 38 bombs last year right? Also his slugging percentage was way higher.

How many games has Delmonico played 3b in the majors? He's a bad defender.

Tons of mocks had Burger in the top 20.

You just cherry-picked good players or prospects from the last 25 years.... what about the other 1000 bad players taken during the second round during that span? The second round is a total crapshoot, as is the MLB draft in general pretty much.

He would hopefully settle in as a 6-7 hitter on the team in '19-20. Keep in mind that Carl Everett was the Sox number 3 hitter in 2005.... Also when was the last Sox 3b to have an OPS over .800? Moustakas is a pretty decent bet for that. Yolmer is a faster runner and better defender for sure, but that's about it. Again, he is a nice utility guy. But serious question: Do you want him as the starting 3b when the Sox are contending? Assuming he puts up similar numbers.

You are far more likely to get a prospect that turns out to be a MLB regular by trading for one that's played in the minors than drafting one. Second round picks typically don't amount to much.

You make many excellent points. Though I must point out that in the same draft (2007) in which Moustakos was a first round pick, Jordan Zimmerman, Giancarlo Stanton, Freddie Freeman and Zack Cozart (to name just four) were chosen in the second round. Second round picks frequently amount to quite a bit.
__________________
2018 Attendance Record: 3-4
All time Sox Attendance Tracker:

275-238.
Closed Thread


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



Forum Jump




All times are GMT -5. The time now is 10:48 AM.




Design by: Michelle

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2018, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Site-specific editorial/photos Copyright ©2001 - 2008 White Sox Interactive. All rights reserved.