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  #31  
Old 09-08-2017, 07:19 PM
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voodoochile voodoochile is offline
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Originally Posted by kittle42 View Post
See, such exchanges can be pleasant.

Seriously, though, it's rare these days that anyone admits their idea is less supportable than they thought. Thank you!
I think it's important we all realize that everyone is mostly just expressing their opinion and so long as they don't get bombastic or start trolling and leave room for other opinions sol good...
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  #32  
Old 09-08-2017, 07:53 PM
Grzegorz Grzegorz is offline
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Originally Posted by Noneck View Post
I dont think there is any "fix in" and unfortunately with the state that this franchise was put in, this is the only possible way out. The thing that was brought up that does concern me is these high line prospects playing in the current environment. These prospects have played on winning teams since they were 10 years old. Now they are playing in an environment where they are expected to lose and when they do its ok. It will take quite a bit of mental adjustment for these players.
Losing is never ok.
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  #33  
Old 09-09-2017, 12:33 AM
Tragg Tragg is offline
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Originally Posted by Flight #24 View Post
While true, IMO Coop and the pitching staff have been consistently good and the few bright spots for the team.
The pitching staff, for years, has been consistently at least 1 starter, and usually 2 starters, short. The bullpen has been equally thin. And the pitching situation, prior to the rebuild, in the high minors was deplorable. The development since Q has been largely non-existent (Kahnle basically).
Now is that on Coop or on the FO?
Pitching is my real concern in this rebuild. I just don't see anywhere near the requisite depth.
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  #34  
Old 09-09-2017, 01:42 AM
Andrew C White Andrew C White is offline
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Originally Posted by Tragg View Post
The pitching staff, for years, has been consistently at least 1 starter, and usually 2 starters, short. The bullpen has been equally thin. And the pitching situation, prior to the rebuild, in the high minors was deplorable. The development since Q has been largely non-existent (Kahnle basically).
Now is that on Coop or on the FO?
Pitching is my real concern in this rebuild. I just don't see anywhere near the requisite depth.
The Sox have accumulated far more than the requisite depth. It is clear you don't like the rebuild, that's fine, but that is just a nonsense statement. There are seven guys capable of being front line starters and another nine with the potential to be back end starters. If you can find any other team at any other point in history that has accumulated the same depth please let me know who and when. I'd love to read about them.
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  #35  
Old 09-09-2017, 10:05 AM
Tragg Tragg is offline
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Originally Posted by Andrew C White View Post
The Sox have accumulated far more than the requisite depth. It is clear you don't like the rebuild, that's fine, but that is just a nonsense statement. There are seven guys capable of being front line starters and another nine with the potential to be back end starters. If you can find any other team at any other point in history that has accumulated the same depth please let me know who and when. I'd love to read about them.
Actually I supported the rebuild from the get-go and still do. I'm just not a blind worshiper of the FO. They acquired a lot of talent because they traded a lot of talent.
But let's go with your numbers. 7 front line starters and 9 back end. That's 16. A pitching staff requires 13. 16 prospects to cover 13 spots......If you use a 50% fail rate (and it's likely to be higher), still short.
Because this is the piece forgotten: the Sox have ONE pitcher on the entire staff (other than recent call-ups, who are included in your 16) who is major league quality. Jones and Putnam? Hurt.
And this FO has a long history of being pitching short.

Last edited by Tragg; 09-09-2017 at 10:13 AM.
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  #36  
Old 09-09-2017, 10:16 AM
Frater Perdurabo Frater Perdurabo is offline
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Originally Posted by Tragg View Post
Actually I supported the rebuild from the get-go and still do. I'm just not a blind worshiper of the FO. They acquired a lot of talent because they traded a lot of talent.
But let's go with your numbers. 7 front line starters and 9 back end. That's 16. A pitching staff requires 13. 16 prospects to cover 13 spots......If you use a 50% fail rate (and it's likely to be higher), still short.
Because this is the piece forgotten: the Sox have ONE pitcher on the entire staff (other than recent call-ups, who are included in your 16) who is major league quality. ONE. And he's hurt. I guess you could consider Jones and Putnam, but they too are hurt. Maybe one of these other guys could fit into the last bullpen spot...maybe. They are starting from near ground zero.
And, yes, they could supplement with free agents. That didn't exactly work last time they tried it.
You're right.

That's why amassing quality in quantity is important.

Even with Sale and Quintana and Rodon, they had a difficult time filling out a rotation (although Gonzalez turned out to be acceptable).

This organization's history in a weird way validates the current strategy.

JR is historically unwilling to shell out big contracts for pitchers. And they've been proven right, most recently with Danks.

After having holes in the rotation for 2000-2004, KW finally pulled off a series of trades to add three starters to the nucleus of Buehrle and Garland. The odds of acquiring another Garcia, Contreras, and El Duque, for such minimal cost, are quite slim.

Yes, I agree that we don't yet have enough pitchers or position players. We need to keep drafting well and turning draft picks into solid MLB regulars.

However, it's possible both to acknowledge that we have already acquired some extremely promising pitching talent (Kopech, Hansen, Giolito, Lopez, etc.), while simultaneously recognizing that it likely will not be enough, and that we either need to draft/develop more, and/or augment through astute trades, and/or augment through Don Cooper/Herm Schneider reclamation projects.
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  #37  
Old 09-09-2017, 10:22 AM
Frater Perdurabo Frater Perdurabo is offline
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One more thought on the bullpen:

The effectiveness of relievers - except for the best relievers - is often a function of how exposed they are/how often they are used.

If your starters routinely can't get through six innings, you're going to use your middle relievers more, and opposing hitters (particularly division opponents who you play many times in a season) will quickly figure out the tendencies of the relievers, who already have limited repertoires.

However, if your starters routinely pitch 6-7 quality innings, and sometimes more, then your middle relievers get used much less, and opposing hitters get fewer opportunities to see them.

In short, if you want a better bullpen, build a better rotation. Middle relievers are interchangeable from year to year and can be acquired as free agents and promoted from the minors.
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  #38  
Old 09-09-2017, 10:34 AM
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voodoochile voodoochile is offline
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And of course minor league depth allows you to trade quantity for quality if/when the day comes the Sox are a player or two from being competitive. It also allows the team to draft best available instead of looking for players with high floors who are close to MLB ready. They can take more flyers on young studs and let them develop because the high minors are packed with players a year or two from being ready.

That CAN become a minor league system that constantly churns out MLB quality players if managed right.

Given the Sox history that's not a probable outcome but it at least remains a possibility more now than at any time in recent years..
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  #39  
Old 09-09-2017, 10:51 AM
TomBradley72 TomBradley72 is offline
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Originally Posted by voodoochile View Post
And of course minor league depth allows you to trade quantity for quality if/when the day comes the Sox are a player or two from being competitive. It also allows the team to draft best available instead of looking for players with high floors who are close to MLB ready. They can take more flyers on young studs and let them develop because the high minors are packed with players a year or two from being ready.

That CAN become a minor league system that constantly churns out MLB quality players if managed right.

Given the Sox history that's not a probable outcome but it at least remains a possibility more now than at any time in recent years..
I see a few signs of an improved ability to draft and/or develop talent-

Delmonico being developed over 2 years after joining the Sox org- off to a good start in the majors
What they've done with Giolito after a rough season with the Nats org in 2016
Nice first seasons by Burger, Sheets, Gonzalez at Kanny.
The development of Collins on defense, and his progression to AA this year.
Finding Hansen in the 2nd round of 2016 draft- and his solid progression this year.

If this seasons top picks progress to A+/AA next season while we backfill that group with another solid draft in 2018- I think we might finally have a solid/consistent feeder of talent coming out of our own farm system from our own draft choices.
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  #40  
Old 09-09-2017, 12:00 PM
Andrew C White Andrew C White is offline
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Originally Posted by Tragg View Post
Actually I supported the rebuild from the get-go and still do. I'm just not a blind worshiper of the FO. They acquired a lot of talent because they traded a lot of talent.
But let's go with your numbers. 7 front line starters and 9 back end. That's 16. A pitching staff requires 13. 16 prospects to cover 13 spots......If you use a 50% fail rate (and it's likely to be higher), still short.
Because this is the piece forgotten: the Sox have ONE pitcher on the entire staff (other than recent call-ups, who are included in your 16) who is major league quality. Jones and Putnam? Hurt.
And this FO has a long history of being pitching short.
OK, now you have expanded it to the bullpen and not just the starters in which case the number of prospects goes up as well. And on a team with good starting pitching the required number would be 12 not 13.

I think we have to consider what a 50% failure rate (doubtful in itself though more likely for pitchers than position players) for pitchers really means. It means some get hurt and never pitch. It means some don't get out of the minors. Importantly, it also means some that are considered starting material become bullpen arms instead and many of those thrive in that role.

All that said, the pitching staff is where I expect the team to sign free agents when the time comes. Not only expect but hope. Particularly the bullpen. A few veterans with experience under pressure to come in when the starter has gotten into a jam.

I agree with the adage that you can never have too much pitching. And I think the ranks get thin at the lowest levels of the system. I hope and expect that this years draft, or certainly the next, will likely see more of an emphasis on pitching. The Sox needed an infusion of position players (the cupboard was completetly bare there) and they got it.

Back to starters, taking your 50% proposition which I think is high, that means 3-4 top of the line pitching prospects turn out and another 4 of the back-end variety. That makes for a very strong starting staff and a couple guys to trade for experienced relievers or to fill holes in the line-up while signing some 2-3 free agents relievers to fill out the pen. I think the pitching depth is just fine (but again, would always love to see more!).

As for blindly worshipping the front office... gimme a break. While a few people may have gone overboard in praising the job Hahn has done (and he has done a superb job so far) "blind worship" is not a particularly accurate description of 98% of the comments here regarding the front office. Almost all of us what to see the place cleaned out with Hahn and Hostetler being the two guys on which opinions are mixed. So let's not overplay that anymore than overplaying the idea that the accumulation of prospect talent hasn't been extremely impressive.
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