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  #16  
Old 09-08-2017, 01:09 PM
Lip Man 1 Lip Man 1 is offline
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Originally Posted by ChisoxAnnapolis View Post
If I was a season ticket holder I would voice my thoughts on is this the movie Major League come true? In the movie the owners on purpose wanted to throw games? After this weekend against S.F. if we get swept again then us fans know the "fix" is in. Really I understand the Robertson move, but a low salary player like Swarzak, who we got a bucket of balls for (era 2.93), there was no reason to unload and leave our bullpen in shambles. Plus, it really set the tone for "it is ok to lose" to all these prospects we got up in the majors now like Giolito, Lopez, Moncada, and Delmonico. If I was in attendance for Hahn's diatribe, Lip did you ask if the Sox were going to charge you AAA season ticket prices next year?
I was not at the meeting, this is a report that I saw of it.

The Sox weren't going anywhere this year. There is no difference between winning 65 games and 70 games if someone like Swarzak was kept. He was going to be a free agent anyway, the Sox at least got something for him. That player may turn out to be a contributor in the future but even if he isn't, Swarzak was returning next year anyway.

Kudos to Hahn for shipping a guy out and getting something for him.
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  #17  
Old 09-08-2017, 02:08 PM
kittle42 kittle42 is offline
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Originally Posted by ChisoxAnnapolis View Post
If I was a season ticket holder I would voice my thoughts on is this the movie Major League come true? In the movie the owners on purpose wanted to throw games? After this weekend against S.F. if we get swept again then us fans know the "fix" is in. Really I understand the Robertson move, but a low salary player like Swarzak, who we got a bucket of balls for (era 2.93), there was no reason to unload and leave our bullpen in shambles. Plus, it really set the tone for "it is ok to lose" to all these prospects we got up in the majors now like Giolito, Lopez, Moncada, and Delmonico. If I was in attendance for Hahn's diatribe, Lip did you ask if the Sox were going to charge you AAA season ticket prices next year?
I will preface this by saying I do not mean to talk down to you or anyone here. But the above sentiment - shared by others here, as well - is just exhibiting a lack of acceptance of how this process works and the business of baseball right now as far as player value and return. The Sox are far from the only team running scrubs out there and trading away low-cost relief pitchers. Look at the deadline deals across MLB. The only "fix" that is in is an attempt to fix this franchise.
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  #18  
Old 09-08-2017, 02:26 PM
Noneck Noneck is offline
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I dont think there is any "fix in" and unfortunately with the state that this franchise was put in, this is the only possible way out. The thing that was brought up that does concern me is these high line prospects playing in the current environment. These prospects have played on winning teams since they were 10 years old. Now they are playing in an environment where they are expected to lose and when they do its ok. It will take quite a bit of mental adjustment for these players.
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  #19  
Old 09-08-2017, 02:40 PM
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I dont think there is any "fix in" and unfortunately with the state that this franchise was put in, this is the only possible way out. The thing that was brought up that does concern me is these high line prospects playing in the current environment. These prospects have played on winning teams since they were 10 years old. Now they are playing in an environment where they are expected to lose and when they do its ok. It will take quite a bit of mental adjustment for these players.
I don't see Giolito or Lopez playing to lose. The fact the team is losing when Pelfrey or Shields starts or the bullpen blows another game won't change that. I don't think they have to mentally adjust much if at all. They know they are expected to work on their craft and that the end result may not reflect their efforts.
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  #20  
Old 09-08-2017, 02:49 PM
kobo kobo is offline
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Originally Posted by Noneck View Post
I dont think there is any "fix in" and unfortunately with the state that this franchise was put in, this is the only possible way out. The thing that was brought up that does concern me is these high line prospects playing in the current environment. These prospects have played on winning teams since they were 10 years old. Now they are playing in an environment where they are expected to lose and when they do its ok. It will take quite a bit of mental adjustment for these players.
They have all played on winning teams since they were 10? Is this a serious statement/opinion? And sorry, they are not expected to lose, they are expected to go out and compete and do their best. Losing is part of the game, and if young players can't understand the position they are in right now and what is expected of them moving forward then they have no business being on any ML roster.
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  #21  
Old 09-08-2017, 02:54 PM
Noneck Noneck is offline
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Originally Posted by voodoochile View Post
I don't see Giolito or Lopez playing to lose. The fact the team is losing when Pelfrey or Shields starts or the bullpen blows another game won't change that. I don't think they have to mentally adjust much if at all. They know they are expected to work on their craft and that the end result may not reflect their efforts.

I never said they are playing to lose, they are competitive athletes that always expect to win. This is something that has been ingrained in them from a early age, winning and expecting to win is all they have known throughout their young lives. I hope they have the mental fortitude to adjust to this new situation, that they will have to struggle through for years to come.
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  #22  
Old 09-08-2017, 03:00 PM
Noneck Noneck is offline
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They have all played on winning teams since they were 10? Is this a serious statement/opinion? And sorry, they are not expected to lose, they are expected to go out and compete and do their best. Losing is part of the game, and if young players can't understand the position they are in right now and what is expected of them moving forward then they have no business being on any ML roster.

Of course they won since they were 10. They were the studs who were on the best traveling teams, high school teams and possibly college teams. The foreign players were cherry picked to play with older players and the best teams.

They understand losing is part of the game but not to compete is a different story which they wont be able to do for years to come.
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  #23  
Old 09-08-2017, 03:06 PM
kittle42 kittle42 is offline
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Of course they won since they were 10. They were the studs who were on the best traveling teams, high school teams and possibly college teams. The foreign players were cherry picked to play with older players and the best teams.

They understand losing is part of the game but not to compete is a different story which they wont be able to do for years to come.
I think the majority of heralded prospects these days are called up by teams who are not good, and frequently groups of them are playing together for years on teams that are not good. Look at the Astros right now versus 3-4 years ago, for example. In addition, there is no way that the minor league squads of these eventual awesome players were consistently winning teams. I think your premise is highly flawed.
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  #24  
Old 09-08-2017, 03:13 PM
ChisoxAnnapolis ChisoxAnnapolis is offline
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I will admit that my argument about "trying to lose" has some holes in it and I respect the points about professionalism to counter. Yet I see some games in the past month where we get good pitching (case in point the last game in Minnesota) and we have no closer...poof we lose it on a hit batsman! In fact, since we got rid of all of our "closers" we have lost a lot games in the 9th inning. Philadelphia and Oakland "professional" ballplayers come to mind with my point. They seem to have this "losing is Ok" attitude too. Finally, if I had any trust in the fact that we have a good track record of drafting decent ballplayers in the first round then I would be more incline to accept this current state of mediocrity. Up till now I don't have any confidence we will get it right with the 1, 2 or 3rd pick in the first round.
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  #25  
Old 09-08-2017, 03:13 PM
Noneck Noneck is offline
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I think the majority of heralded prospects these days are called up by teams who are not good, and frequently groups of them are playing together for years on teams that are not good. Look at the Astros right now versus 3-4 years ago, for example. In addition, there is no way that the minor league squads of these eventual awesome players were consistently winning teams. I think your premise is highly flawed.

These guys dont spend much time in the minors. Where with the parent club it probably will be at least 2-3 of playing in a totally non competitive environment, the longest period of doing so and at the highest achievable level. Maybe I am wrong but its still something that concerns me.

Last edited by Noneck; 09-08-2017 at 03:18 PM.
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  #26  
Old 09-08-2017, 03:39 PM
Paulwny Paulwny is offline
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Young players will give it all they have to be productive. The bigger the stats the bigger the $$ in the future. The teams with the most players with the best stats are the winning teams.
The young players the Sox have realize that they are expected to be the key players to turn this franchise around in a few years.
If they put up the stats everyone expects winning will follow.I don't believe it has anything to do with environment.
No way do I agree with Hawk's TWTW.
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  #27  
Old 09-08-2017, 03:56 PM
kittle42 kittle42 is offline
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Originally Posted by Noneck View Post
These guys dont spend much time in the minors. Where with the parent club it probably will be at least 2-3 of playing in a totally non competitive environment, the longest period of doing so and at the highest achievable level. Maybe I am wrong but its still something that concerns me.
Just taking some guys out of the top WAR players in baseball:
Trout - 2.5 years
Kershaw - 2 years
Altuve - 4.5 years
Kluber 5 years
Scherzer - 3 years
Betts - 3 years
Votto - 2 years
Goldy - 3 years
Arenado - 3 years

This seems like a good enough chunk of time to have spent in the minor leagues. I think you have created a hypothesis, not tested or researched it, and don't have anything to back it up except your feeling.
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  #28  
Old 09-08-2017, 04:23 PM
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voodoochile voodoochile is offline
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Originally Posted by Noneck View Post
I never said they are playing to lose, they are competitive athletes that always expect to win. This is something that has been ingrained in them from a early age, winning and expecting to win is all they have known throughout their young lives. I hope they have the mental fortitude to adjust to this new situation, that they will have to struggle through for years to come.
No I never meant to imply you did. I was attempting to say I think they understand what is expected of them and that may not translate to positive team results for a variety of reasons.

I also trust Rick and Coop to keep them mentally balanced.
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  #29  
Old 09-08-2017, 05:39 PM
Noneck Noneck is offline
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This seems like a good enough chunk of time to have spent in the minor leagues. I think you have created a hypothesis, not tested or researched it, and don't have anything to back it up except your feeling.

And your thinking was 100% correct. A good attorney can spot those things.

Guilty as charged.
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  #30  
Old 09-08-2017, 06:40 PM
kittle42 kittle42 is offline
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And your thinking was 100% correct. A good attorney can spot those things.

Guilty as charged.
See, such exchanges can be pleasant.

Seriously, though, it's rare these days that anyone admits their idea is less supportable than they thought. Thank you!
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