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  #31  
Old 06-23-2019, 10:46 PM
Mohoney Mohoney is offline
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Originally Posted by ChiSoxNationPres View Post
The names I dropped aren't even can't miss guys, they are available for the right price. Especially for pitching rich teams like ATL and HOU. Top relievers that aren't rentals have seen their value go through the roof over the last few years.
The Astros, Cubs, and Dodgers don’t need relief pitching badly enough to trade young starting pitching for it. Young starting pitching is the most valuable commodity there is. If those teams are moving those guys, they are doing it to get a starter.
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  #32  
Old 06-23-2019, 11:01 PM
ChiSoxNationPres ChiSoxNationPres is online now
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Originally Posted by Mohoney View Post
The Astros, Cubs, and Dodgers don’t need relief pitching badly enough to trade young starting pitching for it. Young starting pitching is the most valuable commodity there is. If those teams are moving those guys, they are doing it to get a starter.
Possibly. Though building a super pen has been done every year basically by someone to try and put them over the top. The way the playoffs are structured with so many off days built in, teams with 4 deep shutdown guys have found quite a bit of success. Just because a team's pen isn't struggling, doesn't mean the FO is looking to stand pat. They might want to turn it into a strength and shorten the game. Again, teams with SP depth in the MLB and minors will use what they have to win them a WS.

At the end of the day, not expecting Hahn to flip Bummer or Marshall, but they would bring back possible impact pieces.
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  #33  
Old 06-23-2019, 11:49 PM
Mohoney Mohoney is offline
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Originally Posted by voodoochile View Post
That's why next year is the "make a serious run at the playoffs" year and the window cracks wide open in 2021.
That’s the thing. I would trade the “serious (but inadequately staffed) run at the playoffs” in 2020 to make the chances for 2021 better. For the cost of adding some bad 2020 payroll, we can make the future look a lot better.

Two trade offers that can be made this season:

1) Offer the Astros Jose Abreu and cash for Derek Fisher and Yuli Gurriel.

Abreu is a nice offensive upgrade for the Astros and $8.4 million is cleared off their books for 2020. In exchange, we get a guy who can play all three OF positions and can hit the ball hard, plus a guy who can come off the bench and play 1B, 2B, or 3B.

2) Offer a three-team trade with the Yankees and Giants. Yankees get Madison Bumgarner and Alex Colomé. Giants get their choice of one OF from among Blake Rutherford/Luis Gonzalez/Luis Basabe/Steele Walker, their choice of one pitcher from among Jimmy Lambert/Lincoln Henzman/Jonathan Stiever, and a pitcher like Joe Harvey or Domingo Acevedo from the Yankees. We get Clint Frazier and Jeff Samardzija.

The Yankees don’t want to give up Clint Frazier for a rental starter, but a rental starter and a bullpen upgrade may make it worthwhile to them. In exchange for letting us take Frazier, the Giants instead get an outfielder of their choosing and a pitcher of their choosing from us, a pitcher from the Yankees, plus $19.8 million in salary relief. We get another high-end OF talent who can hit the ball hard, plus a starter who can make 30 starts and soak up innings.

In exchange for Abreu, Colomé, two prospects, and $28 million in added 2020 payroll (but zero added payroll after 2020), we can have a 2020 OF of Eloy Jimenez/Derek Fisher/Clint Frazier left-to-right, with Robert eventually sliding Fisher to RF and allowing Eloy/Frazier to share LF/DH duties. We also add a much-needed stabilizing force to the rotation and an insurance policy at 1B in case Abreu leaves via free agency.
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  #34  
Old 06-24-2019, 12:49 AM
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If there's one thing this franchise can't afford right now, it's another White Flag Trade. It's finally building up goodwill with the fan base for the first time in years, and we're just going to write off an earlier opening of the window because it can't be a serious contender in 2020? You think people were mad when the Sox missed out on Machado? That's going to be a love fest compared to what will happen if this year, they sell off anyone of value now or in the future.

As I said before, I'm sick of having decent players on our team become an apple tree for contenders. If our goal is to get to .500 this year, it won't happen if trades deplete the major league talent at the deadline. If we fall back to 10 below .500, I'll see it as a major step back after we've flirted around that mark throughout the first half of the season.

I want to win, and I want to win now. We haven't made the playoffs since Blago was governor. Can I at least get some indication that we're almost ready?
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  #35  
Old 06-24-2019, 01:34 AM
Mohoney Mohoney is offline
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Originally Posted by thomas35forever View Post
If there's one thing this franchise can't afford right now, it's another White Flag Trade. It's finally building up goodwill with the fan base for the first time in years, and we're just going to write off an earlier opening of the window because it can't be a serious contender in 2020?
Yes. We’re going to write off an earlier opening of the window, because the window won’t actually be opening that early anyway.

I would much rather have another also-ran year in 2020 and be better equipped to win in 2021, 2022, or 2023 than to hang around the outer fringes of Wild Card contention in 2020 and have a worse chance of winning in 2021, 2022, or 2023.

Is it possible to do both? I believe it is, but it would involve ownership doing something that has never been done in the history of the franchise: getting the hell out of the way after the payroll budget is determined and letting the GM do his job.
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  #36  
Old 06-24-2019, 04:05 AM
Grzegorz Grzegorz is offline
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Jeff Samardzija and Coop back together again. Oh the possibilities...
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  #37  
Old 06-24-2019, 04:47 AM
harwar harwar is offline
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I was always just hoping for near .500 for this year, with next year to be a legitimately good team . i'm expecting more next year, but not necessarily playoff bound, until some key players, that are still working their way up to the big club, or back to it, are wearing the White Sox uniform.
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  #38  
Old 06-24-2019, 06:02 AM
Frater Perdurabo Frater Perdurabo is online now
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Originally Posted by Mohoney View Post
That’s the thing. I would trade the “serious (but inadequately staffed) run at the playoffs” in 2020 to make the chances for 2021 better. For the cost of adding some bad 2020 payroll, we can make the future look a lot better.

Two trade offers that can be made this season:

1) Offer the Astros Jose Abreu and cash for Derek Fisher and Yuli Gurriel.

Abreu is a nice offensive upgrade for the Astros and $8.4 million is cleared off their books for 2020. In exchange, we get a guy who can play all three OF positions and can hit the ball hard, plus a guy who can come off the bench and play 1B, 2B, or 3B.

2) Offer a three-team trade with the Yankees and Giants. Yankees get Madison Bumgarner and Alex Colomé. Giants get their choice of one OF from among Blake Rutherford/Luis Gonzalez/Luis Basabe/Steele Walker, their choice of one pitcher from among Jimmy Lambert/Lincoln Henzman/Jonathan Stiever, and a pitcher like Joe Harvey or Domingo Acevedo from the Yankees. We get Clint Frazier and Jeff Samardzija.

The Yankees don’t want to give up Clint Frazier for a rental starter, but a rental starter and a bullpen upgrade may make it worthwhile to them. In exchange for letting us take Frazier, the Giants instead get an outfielder of their choosing and a pitcher of their choosing from us, a pitcher from the Yankees, plus $19.8 million in salary relief. We get another high-end OF talent who can hit the ball hard, plus a starter who can make 30 starts and soak up innings.

In exchange for Abreu, Colomé, two prospects, and $28 million in added 2020 payroll (but zero added payroll after 2020), we can have a 2020 OF of Eloy Jimenez/Derek Fisher/Clint Frazier left-to-right, with Robert eventually sliding Fisher to RF and allowing Eloy/Frazier to share LF/DH duties. We also add a much-needed stabilizing force to the rotation and an insurance policy at 1B in case Abreu leaves via free agency.
I don’t know that it’s those players that I want, or want to surrender,, but I do know that this kind of creative thinking is what it will take to improve the team. Nicely done.
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  #39  
Old 06-24-2019, 08:31 AM
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Originally Posted by thomas35forever View Post
If there's one thing this franchise can't afford right now, it's another White Flag Trade. It's finally building up goodwill with the fan base for the first time in years, and we're just going to write off an earlier opening of the window because it can't be a serious contender in 2020? You think people were mad when the Sox missed out on Machado? That's going to be a love fest compared to what will happen if this year, they sell off anyone of value now or in the future.

As I said before, I'm sick of having decent players on our team become an apple tree for contenders. If our goal is to get to .500 this year, it won't happen if trades deplete the major league talent at the deadline. If we fall back to 10 below .500, I'll see it as a major step back after we've flirted around that mark throughout the first half of the season.

I want to win, and I want to win now. We haven't made the playoffs since Blago was governor. Can I at least get some indication that we're almost ready?
I understand your frustration at the idea of this team selling off parts in July, but the window on this year pretty much closed when both Kopech and Rodon got injured.

I know it's hard to be patient when there is so much positive going on with the team, but we've made it this far, a few more months won't matter.

I also disagree with your assessment of what the fans will do if the Sox end up trading players off, even popular ones like Abreu. There will be some backlash but it will be minimal and it will be over by the Spring. This is not the 1997 team comprised of veterans trying to compete for the division because there was no farm system.

We're in year 3 of the rebuild. The window might have cracked open early if the injuries didn't happen. They did. Next year will be even brighter and the year after that things really get cooking.

Hang in there. We'll get there...
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  #40  
Old 06-24-2019, 09:01 AM
soxfanatlanta soxfanatlanta is offline
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I've always felt that 2020 was going to be the year they were playing competitive ball, and 2021 was the most realistic year for playoff contention.
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  #41  
Old 06-24-2019, 09:29 AM
ChiTownTrojan ChiTownTrojan is offline
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Originally Posted by thomas35forever View Post
If there's one thing this franchise can't afford right now, it's another White Flag Trade. It's finally building up goodwill with the fan base for the first time in years, and we're just going to write off an earlier opening of the window because it can't be a serious contender in 2020? You think people were mad when the Sox missed out on Machado? That's going to be a love fest compared to what will happen if this year, they sell off anyone of value now or in the future.

As I said before, I'm sick of having decent players on our team become an apple tree for contenders. If our goal is to get to .500 this year, it won't happen if trades deplete the major league talent at the deadline. If we fall back to 10 below .500, I'll see it as a major step back after we've flirted around that mark throughout the first half of the season.

I want to win, and I want to win now. We haven't made the playoffs since Blago was governor. Can I at least get some indication that we're almost ready?
Fans recognize that this team has major flaws and is not a serious contender. The excitement that is building is about the future of the team, not their chances in 2019. If they do another round of selling off veterans for young pieces, I don't think you'll hear much complaining from the fan base because they know that's how the current core was constructed in the first place.
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  #42  
Old 06-24-2019, 09:52 AM
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Today, the Sox had runners on second and third with one out, down by just a run after scoring two and struck out twice to close out the inning. The key was Alonso not at least tying the game with a productive out. Still, if Renteria was going to bring in Herrera to pitch the eighth with a tie or protecting a one-run lead, the game was probably lost anyway.
Why on earth did Renteria have Alonso bat in that situation when what was needed was bat contact? Wasn't Tilson available (can't remember) but he is much better at making contact than Alonso. IMO, RR made a huge blunder.

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They don't need Machado. They need pitching.
Exactly. I said this before, once you knew a key starter was lost (Kopeck), replacing him with a solid pitcher should have been the Sox's management number 1 focus; not getting MM. I still believe to this day Kenny was the driver behind getting Machado. I know Hahn "took the bullet" for his boss. But that move was so much inline with KW's character. Always trying to make the big splash. Hahn was and has been in "re-tooling/rebuilding" mode.
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  #43  
Old 06-24-2019, 09:58 AM
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Chez Chez is offline
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Why on earth did Renteria have Alonso bat in that situation when what was needed was bat contact? Wasn't Tilson available (can't remember) but he is much better at making contact than Alonso. IMO, RR made a huge blunder.
Tilson had just entered the game as a pinch runner for Eloy. The only right handed bat available at that time was Rondon. Alonso has hit LHP better than RHP this season (FWIW).
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  #44  
Old 06-24-2019, 09:58 AM
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Originally Posted by thomas35forever View Post
If there's one thing this franchise can't afford right now, it's another White Flag Trade. It's finally building up goodwill with the fan base for the first time in years, and we're just going to write off an earlier opening of the window because it can't be a serious contender in 2020? You think people were mad when the Sox missed out on Machado? That's going to be a love fest compared to what will happen if this year, they sell off anyone of value now or in the future.

As I said before, I'm sick of having decent players on our team become an apple tree for contenders. If our goal is to get to .500 this year, it won't happen if trades deplete the major league talent at the deadline. If we fall back to 10 below .500, I'll see it as a major step back after we've flirted around that mark throughout the first half of the season.

I want to win, and I want to win now. We haven't made the playoffs since Blago was governor. Can I at least get some indication that we're almost ready?
The team is generating goodwill because of the development of rebuild pieces like Moncada, Anderson, Giolito, and Robert. It is not generating goodwill because of its minuscule chance of making the playoffs. The media and many fans, unlike a significant chunk of the WSI user base, seems to grasp the logic of rebuilding.

Trading away Abreu, Colome, or McCann in July isn't going to hurt the team from a PR perspective. People know what's up.
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  #45  
Old 06-24-2019, 10:00 AM
HomeFish HomeFish is offline
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Exactly. I said this before, once you knew a key starter was lost (Kopeck), replacing him with a solid pitcher should have been the Sox's management number 1 focus; not getting MM. I still believe to this day Kenny was the driver behind getting Machado. I know Hahn "took the bullet" for his boss. But that move was so much inline with KW's character. Always trying to make the big splash. Hahn was and has been in "re-tooling/rebuilding" mode.
Manny Machado would have been a huge help to the team in 2020, 2021, etc. He's a generational talent and would have made the Sox a much better team.

What solid pitchers did you want Hahn to acquire? Baseball doesn't reward mediocrity, it rewards either excellence (with the Commissioner's Trophy) or awfulness (with high draft picks). Adding just a top starter to the 2019 White Sox would have made this from a slightly below average team to a merely average team - no reward for that.

Hahn should acquire a top-flight starter before the 2020 or 2021 seasons. That will need to be via trade given the lack of FA options.
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