White Sox Interactive Forums
Sox Clubhouse
 Soxogram: 
And away we go...

Welcome
Go Back   White Sox Interactive Forums > Baseball Discussions > Sox Clubhouse
Home Chat Stats Register Blogs FAQ Calendar Mark Forums Read


Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Old 11-17-2017, 04:28 PM
kittle42 kittle42 is offline
WSI Prelate
 
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: Lakeview
Posts: 22,069
Default The fallacy that the Sox have more injuries

A number of posters here insist that the Sox have worse injury problems than (I assume) every other team in MLB.

Here is a detailed rundown of DL time and trips for every ballclub in 2017.
__________________
Ridiculousness across all sports:

(1) "You have no valid opinion because you never played the game."
(2) "Stats are irrelevant. This guy just doesn't know how to win."
Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old 11-17-2017, 06:01 PM
SI1020 SI1020 is offline
WSI High Priest
 
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: Deep in the heart of Dixie
Posts: 5,278
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by kittle42 View Post
A number of posters here insist that the Sox have worse injury problems than (I assume) every other team in MLB.

Here is a detailed rundown of DL time and trips for every ballclub in 2017.
Thanks for a very informative link. It's well put together and I especially like the attention paid to the impact the 10 day DL had on pitchers. I will note that the Sox were 11th in total days lost and significantly above the median and mean in total days lost, and the individual breakdowns for pitchers and hitters. The Sox were really close to the middle in total trips to the DL and the individual numbers for pitchers and hitters. So on balance you could say it wasn't a great year injury wise but by no means terrible or historic. I think that perhaps we as fans noticed an increase from years past, at least that was my impression. I may or may not be right, not having all DL data for recent years. I also note that the Dodgers despite leading the league in DL stints and time lost were still able to field a team with 100+ wins and a trip to the WS.
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old 11-17-2017, 06:16 PM
Grzegorz Grzegorz is offline
WSI Church Elder
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Western Suburbs
Posts: 2,881
Default

Maybe you're right maybe you're wrong.

Just looking at one year is really not worth considering.
__________________
ďThere were a few hard rules, but everybody was unique, and he understood that. Georgeís great strength was he didnít overcoach. Thereís no place for panic on the mound.Ē - Jim Palmer on George Bamberger ďArms and the man,Ē Sports Illustrated, April 19, 2004

Last edited by Grzegorz; 11-17-2017 at 06:23 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old 11-17-2017, 06:17 PM
Lip Man 1 Lip Man 1 is offline
WSI Guru
 
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: Chubbuck, Idaho
Posts: 31,479
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by kittle42 View Post
A number of posters here insist that the Sox have worse injury problems than (I assume) every other team in MLB.

Here is a detailed rundown of DL time and trips for every ballclub in 2017.
It doesn't matter how many injuries the Yankees, Cubs, Blue Jays or Phillies have compared to the Sox. None...nada.

What matters is how many injuries the WHITE SOX have. Period. End of discussion. A Yankee getting hurt doesn't impact one whit what the White Sox do or don't do. When a White Sox player gets hurt it DIRECTLY impacts how they are going to do.

Thus the difference.

Now factor in the fact the White Sox farm system for years was poor so even if only a few guys went down, they basically had nothing to replace those guys with. That was a big deal. It also meant that injuries were a major factor in blowing up the 2001, 2004, 2007 and 2010 seasons just off the top of my head.

Teams with deep farm systems can overcome that like the Yankees and Cardinals the past few years...teams with high payrolls could buy replacements in July.

The White Sox couldn't.

ANY injuries were a very big deal when they happened to the Sox because of those factors listed directly above.

Lastly for years the Sox have been talking about how good of a job they do keeping their players healthy and on the field.

And rightly so.

Then how you explain the glut of serious injuries the past two years?

(I'll wait for an answer...)

Some posters always talk about 'placing things in context.' That's true...which means you also have to put the Sox injury situation in context to the organization's philosophy, farm system and ability to pay to replace players. And the bottom line is that when White Sox players go down, ANY PLAYERS, it has FAR more impact on them, then when an Reds outfielder hurts his knee.

Last edited by Lip Man 1; 11-17-2017 at 06:23 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old 11-17-2017, 06:50 PM
Noneck Noneck is offline
The Blind Squirrel that finally found an acorn.
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Nw Side
Posts: 10,420
Default

I wish they would have broken each team from 2013 on, so we could see which teams are having more or less injuries.
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old 11-17-2017, 07:05 PM
Marqhead Marqhead is offline
WSI High Priest
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: In the Shadow of the Sears Tower
Posts: 9,219
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Noneck View Post
I wish they would have broken each team from 2013 on, so we could see which teams are having more or less injuries.
There have been articles in the past that over the last 10 or so years the White Sox have the lowest injury rate in the MLB. Iíll have to dig up the old thread. Last year was above average but over a long period theyíve been very healthy.
__________________


Big Frank in the Hall? "No doubt about it."

2009 WSI Roto 1 Keeper League Champ
2009 WSI H2H 1 Keeper League Runner-up (Reg. Season Champ)
2010 WSI H2H 1 Keeper League Champ
2010 WSI H2H 2 Keeper League Champ
2011 WSI H2H 1 Keeper League Runner-up
2012 WSI Roto 2 Keeper League Runner-up
2016 WSI Roto 2 Keeper League Champ
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old 11-17-2017, 07:07 PM
Marqhead Marqhead is offline
WSI High Priest
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: In the Shadow of the Sears Tower
Posts: 9,219
Default

https://www.google.com/amp/ftw.usato...-list-days/amp

https://www.fangraphs.com/tht/2015-d...a-little-more/
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old 11-17-2017, 07:40 PM
Mohoney Mohoney is offline
WSI High Priest
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: Palos Hills, IL
Posts: 8,124
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lip Man 1
It doesn't matter how many injuries the Yankees, Cubs, Blue Jays or Phillies have compared to the Sox. None...nada.

What matters is how many injuries the WHITE SOX have. Period. End of discussion. A Yankee getting hurt doesn't impact one whit what the White Sox do or don't do. When a White Sox player gets hurt it DIRECTLY impacts how they are going to do.

Thus the difference.

Now factor in the fact the White Sox farm system for years was poor so even if only a few guys went down, they basically had nothing to replace those guys with. That was a big deal. It also meant that injuries were a major factor in blowing up the 2001, 2004, 2007 and 2010 seasons just off the top of my head.

Teams with deep farm systems can overcome that like the Yankees and Cardinals the past few years...teams with high payrolls could buy replacements in July.

The White Sox couldn't.

ANY injuries were a very big deal when they happened to the Sox because of those factors listed directly above.

Lastly for years the Sox have been talking about how good of a job they do keeping their players healthy and on the field.

And rightly so.

Then how you explain the glut of serious injuries the past two years?

(I'll wait for an answer...)

Some posters always talk about 'placing things in context.' That's true...which means you also have to put the Sox injury situation in context to the organization's philosophy, farm system and ability to pay to replace players. And the bottom line is that when White Sox players go down, ANY PLAYERS, it has FAR more impact on them, then when an Reds outfielder hurts his knee.
The glut of serious injuries is explained by the fact that it isnít a ďglut.Ē It is not an abnormal occurrence. It is well within the realm of what one can realistically expect to happen during the course of a baseball season. That is the entire point of this thread.

The fact that previous teams were not constructed solidly enough to overcome injuries is an entirely different subject.
__________________
Quote:
Originally Posted by Horsemaster Fred
This is the major leagues so get it how you live and letís fight tomorrow.
Reply With Quote
  #9  
Old 11-17-2017, 09:01 PM
Lip Man 1 Lip Man 1 is offline
WSI Guru
 
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: Chubbuck, Idaho
Posts: 31,479
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mohoney View Post
The glut of serious injuries is explained by the fact that it isnít a ďglut.Ē It is not an abnormal occurrence. It is well within the realm of what one can realistically expect to happen during the course of a baseball season.
It is a "glut" for the White Sox compared to the number of serious injuries in previous years in my opinion. The last two years saw player after player after player go down.

And they weren't going down with hangnails which is a point I was trying to make.

The question remain why considering their past "success..."

Bad luck? Maybe but I don't believe in bad luck or good luck, you make your own luck with talent, preparation and a willingness to work. Something has been going on the last two years. It would behoove (ya like that word?) the White Sox to find out why before it "infects" the kids they are pinning a rebuild on.
Reply With Quote
  #10  
Old 11-17-2017, 09:25 PM
Mohoney Mohoney is offline
WSI High Priest
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: Palos Hills, IL
Posts: 8,124
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lip Man 1
It is a "glut" for the White Sox compared to the number of serious injuries in previous years in my opinion. The last two years saw player after player after player go down.

And they weren't going down with hangnails which is a point I was trying to make.

The question remain why considering their past "success..."

Bad luck? Maybe but I don't believe in bad luck or good luck, you make your own luck with talent, preparation and a willingness to work. Something has been going on the last two years. It would behoove (ya like that word?) the White Sox to find out why before it "infects" the kids they are pinning a rebuild on.
There is no ďmaybeĒ involved. It is luck. It is entirely random. It is nothing more than a random collection of freak occurrences. It is also unavoidable.

These are multi-million-dollar athletes. Iím thoroughly convinced that they are taking every possible precaution to avoid injury.

Your entire argument is based on the assumption that there is some sort of inadequacy in the preventive measures being taken by the team, which I donít buy at all. Sports medicine is at the point where the preventive measures being taken are pretty much universal league-wide, and Iím willing to bet that the White Sox are no exception.
Reply With Quote
  #11  
Old 11-17-2017, 11:13 PM
Grzegorz Grzegorz is offline
WSI Church Elder
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Western Suburbs
Posts: 2,881
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mohoney View Post
There is no “maybe” involved. It is luck. It is entirely random. It is nothing more than a random collection of freak occurrences. It is also unavoidable.

These are multi-million-dollar athletes. I’m thoroughly convinced that they are taking every possible precaution to avoid injury.

Your entire argument is based on the assumption that there is some sort of inadequacy in the preventive measures being taken by the team, which I don’t buy at all. Sports medicine is at the point where the preventive measures being taken are pretty much universal league-wide, and I’m willing to bet that the White Sox are no exception.

I does not follow that achieving some lofty level in sports medicine, computer security or automobile safety means that each individual, department or organization practices those preventive measures.

The White Sox in 2017 have experienced a number of injuries which depletes depth. The lack of depth in the rotation forces the bullpen to pitch more innings. This causes the relievers to have less rest increasing the risk of injury.

2017: Tilson, Covey, Putnam, Petricka, Shields, Rodon, Minaya, Jones and Gonzales.

2016: Rodon, Gonzalez, Webb, Lawrie, Petricka, Putnam, Holland.

2015: Johnson (Micah), Turner, Jones, Putnam, Petricka, Geurra, Jennings, Webb.

Last edited by Grzegorz; 11-17-2017 at 11:23 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #12  
Old 11-18-2017, 12:03 AM
HomeFish HomeFish is offline
WSI High Priest
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: Arlington, VA
Posts: 6,357
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Grzegorz View Post
I does not follow that achieving some lofty level in sports medicine, computer security or automobile safety means that each individual, department or organization practices those preventive measures.

The White Sox in 2017 have experienced a number of injuries which depletes depth. The lack of depth in the rotation forces the bullpen to pitch more innings. This causes the relievers to have less rest increasing the risk of injury.

2017: Tilson, Covey, Putnam, Petricka, Shields, Rodon, Minaya, Jones and Gonzales.

2016: Rodon, Gonzalez, Webb, Lawrie, Petricka, Putnam, Holland.

2015: Johnson (Micah), Turner, Jones, Putnam, Petricka, Geurra, Jennings, Webb.
Is there a team that in your opinion has eliminated injuries through best practices? Because what I see is the White Sox suffering fewer injuries than most other teams, and the overall prevalence of injuries across all teams suggesting that injuries are an unavoidable part of baseball.
__________________
"Hope...may be indulged in by those who have abundant resources...but its nature is to be extravagant, and those who go so far as to stake their all upon the venture see it in its true colors only when they are ruined."
-- Thucydides
Reply With Quote
  #13  
Old 11-18-2017, 01:49 AM
kittle42 kittle42 is offline
WSI Prelate
 
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: Lakeview
Posts: 22,069
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mohoney View Post
Your entire argument is based on the assumption that there is some sort of inadequacy in the preventive measures being taken by the team, which I donít buy at all. Sports medicine is at the point where the preventive measures being taken are pretty much universal league-wide, and Iím willing to bet that the White Sox are no exception.
Here, I will have to disagree with you a bit - certain organizations (Mets, Mets, Mets) are renowned for having trouble keeping pitchers healthy, to the point where it was a big story when the strength and conditioning guys weren't jettisoned. But those stories are few and far between.
Reply With Quote
  #14  
Old 11-18-2017, 02:00 AM
kittle42 kittle42 is offline
WSI Prelate
 
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: Lakeview
Posts: 22,069
Default

Here is another article showing 2016.

Lip's point that context and comparators are not needed is completely illogical, sorry. To put it another way, I could tell you that the Sox hit 186 homers last season, with no other data. You might say, "Wow, that is a lot of home runs."

But really, you wouldn't have any idea whether that number was any "good" unless you knew what other teams did in the same metric.

Same idea here. If you tell me the Sox lost players to the DL 23 times last season, I would say man, that sounds like a lot! Something is wrong!

But when you look at the numbers in the context of MLB as a whole, not so much.
Reply With Quote
  #15  
Old 11-18-2017, 05:48 AM
Grzegorz Grzegorz is offline
WSI Church Elder
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Western Suburbs
Posts: 2,881
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by HomeFish View Post
Is there a team that in your opinion has eliminated injuries through best practices? Because what I see is the White Sox suffering fewer injuries than most other teams, and the overall prevalence of injuries across all teams suggesting that injuries are an unavoidable part of baseball.
No, because nothing is one hundred percent effective when it comes to individuals.

Through proper coaching (mechanics/don't waste pitches), training (strength training, conditioning/flexibility) and rehabilitation (rest) the incidence of injuries can be lowered.

There are, for this team, many pitching injuries. When I see abdominal strains I ask is it because the pitcher rotates their body too sharply and too quickly in relation to their mechanics or conditioning?

Dead arms, ulnar collateral ligament (UCL) & a bum elbow (medial epicondylitis) can develop from overuse. Are pitchers pitching too much year round? Do they drive up pitch count during the season by nibbling at the strike zone as opposed to going after hitters?

All of the arm/Shoulder injuries can be caused by throwing too hard, poor mechanics and/or overuse.

There is every reason to take a much deeper look into the philosophy and practices at every level of training within this organization.

I'll be very interested watching in the pitchers we have in our top thirty prospects to see who does/does not develop an injury history.

Last edited by Grzegorz; 11-18-2017 at 09:53 AM.
Reply With Quote
Reply


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



Forum Jump




All times are GMT -5. The time now is 10:19 AM.




Design by: Michelle

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Site-specific editorial/photos Copyright ©2001 - 2008 White Sox Interactive. All rights reserved.