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  #316  
Old 01-13-2018, 08:48 AM
kittle42 kittle42 is offline
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Originally Posted by Grzegorz View Post
I'll wait to see how these players perform at the big league level before saying the return was exceptional.
The trade was excellent based on present perceived value. In the future, that could change.
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  #317  
Old 01-13-2018, 09:58 AM
Mohoney Mohoney is offline
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Originally Posted by kittle42
The trade was excellent based on present perceived value. In the future, that could change.
This is a very important distinction that cannot be overlooked. The ability to secure maximum value in trades and the ability to successfully predict the future success of young talent are not the same thing. Even if none of the three pitchers acquired for Adam Eaton become rotation mainstays, that doesnít make the trade a bad trade.
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  #318  
Old 01-13-2018, 11:39 AM
asindc asindc is offline
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Originally Posted by Mohoney View Post
This is a very important distinction that cannot be overlooked. The ability to secure maximum value in trades and the ability to successfully predict the future success of young talent are not the same thing. Even if none of the three pitchers acquired for Adam Eaton become rotation mainstays, that doesnít make the trade a bad trade.
Bingo.
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  #319  
Old 01-13-2018, 11:47 AM
Tragg Tragg is offline
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Originally Posted by JB98 View Post

The easy part of the rebuild is over. It's what they do from here as far as drafting and developing that will tell the tale on Hahn. We'll see where we are in two years.
Agree. Hahn's best work has always been when he's tried to acquire young players...this was true in 2013 and 2016/17. Where he's struggled is in building a winning team. He wasn't very good at it 2014-June 2016. He also has to prove that he can sustain a farm system with good drafting.

As for Gonzalez, he's pretty blah to me. But they needed someone to eat innings and he does that to some extent.

The Abreu deal seems below-market; might make him more tradeable, but it doesn't look like they want to go that route.
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  #320  
Old 01-13-2018, 11:52 AM
TomBradley72 TomBradley72 is offline
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Originally Posted by Grzegorz View Post
I'll say now that I am encouraged by what I see from these players the White Sox received in deals for Eaton and Quintana.

I'll wait to see how these players perform at the big league level before saying the return was exceptional.
That's fair- let's also wait and see how the players traded away perform as well.

Sale- Cy Young level performance though August, 3.72 ERA in September, 8.38 ERA in the post season
Eaton- lost to injury for most of the season
Quintana- 7-3, 3.74 ERA w/Cubs, 5.40 ERA in the post season
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  #321  
Old 01-13-2018, 12:27 PM
Falstaff Falstaff is offline
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Originally Posted by TomBradley72 View Post
That's fair- let's also wait and see how the players traded away perform as well.

Sale- Cy Young level performance though August, 3.72 ERA in September, 8.38 ERA in the post season
Eaton- lost to injury for most of the season
Quintana- 7-3, 3.74 ERA w/Cubs, 5.40 ERA in the post season
Agreed. You know, when Sale got traded, I posted that some day the White Sox will square off against Red Sox for the pennant. And Sale would get his rear end handed to him. Never was a big game pitcher, and he always runs out of gas late in the season when they are all big games.
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  #322  
Old 01-13-2018, 01:22 PM
Hitmen77 Hitmen77 is offline
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Originally Posted by TomBradley72 View Post
Maybe- but the return he got for Eaton and Quintana was exceptional.
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Originally Posted by Grzegorz View Post
I'll say now that I am encouraged by what I see from these players the White Sox received in deals for Eaton and Quintana.

I'll wait to see how these players perform at the big league level before saying the return was exceptional.
Quote:
Originally Posted by kittle42 View Post
The trade was excellent based on present perceived value. In the future, that could change.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mohoney View Post
This is a very important distinction that cannot be overlooked. The ability to secure maximum value in trades and the ability to successfully predict the future success of young talent are not the same thing. Even if none of the three pitchers acquired for Adam Eaton become rotation mainstays, that doesn’t make the trade a bad trade.
Excellent points. First of all, we shouldn't point to the Sale trade only and say well duh, anyone could have done that. The Sox also got a ton of talent for Eaton and Quintana. Potentially 3 rotation mainstays for Adam Eaton. He also got more (in potential talent) for Q than many people (including myself) were expecting last winter.

Yeah, all these guys could end up being busts, but at this point in time these are great trades and RH & Co. deserve kudos for pulling these off. Let's also not overlook that Rick Hahn is reportedly the guy in Sox management who secured long-term, low-cost extensions for Sale, Eaton, and Q; which in part made the return on these trades possible.

...and saying so isn't hero worship or deifying RH by any means. People like to treat statements or opinions around here as black and white. Simply acknowledging the good work so far isn't the same as building a statue to the guy....not even close.

Of course, the challenge now for the Sox organization is to convert all this potential talent into great, bona-fina major league players. We all agree that the jury is still out on this and I can understand people's skepticism (based on what we've gone through this this team over the years) on whether the Sox can pull that off. We'll see how it all plays out over the next few seasons. I, for one, am looking forward to seeing what happens in 2018.
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  #323  
Old 01-13-2018, 03:21 PM
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Originally Posted by Hitmen77 View Post
Excellent points. First of all, we shouldn't point to the Sale trade only and say well duh, anyone could have done that. The Sox also got a ton of talent for Eaton and Quintana. Potentially 3 rotation mainstays for Adam Eaton. He also got more (in potential talent) for Q than many people (including myself) were expecting last winter.

Yeah, all these guys could end up being busts, but at this point in time these are great trades and RH & Co. deserve kudos for pulling these off. Let's also not overlook that Rick Hahn is reportedly the guy in Sox management who secured long-term, low-cost extensions for Sale, Eaton, and Q; which in part made the return on these trades possible.

...and saying so isn't hero worship or deifying RH by any means. People like to treat statements or opinions around here as black and white. Simply acknowledging the good work so far isn't the same as building a statue to the guy....not even close.

Of course, the challenge now for the Sox organization is to convert all this potential talent into great, bona-fina major league players. We all agree that the jury is still out on this and I can understand people's skepticism (based on what we've gone through this this team over the years) on whether the Sox can pull that off. We'll see how it all plays out over the next few seasons. I, for one, am looking forward to seeing what happens in 2018.
Yes, he did get good prospects for Eaton and Quintana, who are not in Sale's category, but are still high-end players with team-friendly contracts. I didn't see those moves as any evidence of genius, though. How hard is it to ask for another team's top prospects and receive them in exchange for proven veterans? Not hard.

Drafting and developing is hard. Putting the correct pieces around a core is hard. The Sox have been bad at those two things for an extended period of time. That has to change, or the rebuild isn't going to work.

You're right that Hahn deserves credit for securing those team-friendly extensions for those players. But for me, his resume remains light. He has a lot to prove. I don't consider any of the trades he's made to be ones that other GMs around the league couldn't have pulled off had they been placed in the same situation.
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  #324  
Old 01-13-2018, 03:50 PM
Golden Sox Golden Sox is offline
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I couldn't believe that Hahn had his contract extended last year. I thought JR was going to tell him goodbye. I remember in the late 1980s JR hired Larry Himes. After 4 years of drafting well and some good trades the team won 90 games in 1990 and almost made the Playoffs. After the season JR didn't renew Himes contract. JR told everybody who was willing to listen that Himes didn't get along with anybody in the organization and he didn't think Himes could take the team from Point C to Point A. The White Sox almost made the Playoffs during the 2012 season. After the 2012 season, JR made Hahn the GM. He has since taken the team from Point C to Point Y. Or has Hahn would say the team has been "Mired In Mediocrity". Any owner that was serious about winning would have not renewed Hahns contract. I think he has been the least productive GM in the modern day history of the franchise. (post 1951) I would have liked this so called rebuild a lot better if Hahn wasn't in charge of it.
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  #325  
Old 01-13-2018, 03:52 PM
A. Cavatica A. Cavatica is offline
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Originally Posted by Tragg View Post
Agree. Hahn's best work has always been when he's tried to acquire young players...this was true in 2013 and 2016/17. Where he's struggled is in building a winning team. He wasn't very good at it 2014-June 2016. He also has to prove that he can sustain a farm system with good drafting.
The biggest flaw with the 2014-2016 teams was Robin Ventura. That was not Hahn's fault. KW recruited Ventura and Reinsdorf loved him.

Hahn actually "won" two consecutive offseasons according to many baseball writers, landing hitters and pitchers who were the best available in weak FA classes. The effort was doomed by Ventura's presence and by many years of KW's "reloading", which depleted the system and the budget. I think Hahn did very well within the parameters of what he was allowed to do.
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  #326  
Old 01-13-2018, 03:54 PM
TomBradley72 TomBradley72 is offline
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Originally Posted by JB98 View Post
Yes, he did get good prospects for Eaton and Quintana, who are not in Sale's category, but are still high-end players with team-friendly contracts. I didn't see those moves as any evidence of genius, though. How hard is it to ask for another team's top prospects and receive them in exchange for proven veterans? Not hard.

Drafting and developing is hard. Putting the correct pieces around a core is hard. The Sox have been bad at those two things for an extended period of time. That has to change, or the rebuild isn't going to work.

You're right that Hahn deserves credit for securing those team-friendly extensions for those players. But for me, his resume remains light. He has a lot to prove. I don't consider any of the trades he's made to be ones that other GMs around the league couldn't have pulled off had they been placed in the same situation.
I think emphasizing that the "jury is out" on the ability to draft and develop talent (especially position players) is a very fair statement- I personally see
some promising signs with how Anderson (last 2 months), Sanchez and Delmonico (not drafted, but I think they get credit for the development side) performed in 2018- but in our Top 20 prospects we have these players we drafted/signed- how they develop will tell us if Hahn is a fully rounded GM-

#18- Stephens, #15-Sheets, #14 Adolfo, #13 Adams, #12 Burdi, #10- Burger, #8 Fulmer, #7 Collins, #6 Hansen, #3 Robert.
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  #327  
Old 01-13-2018, 04:08 PM
jcw218 jcw218 is online now
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I couldn't believe that Hahn had his contract extended last year. I thought JR was going to tell him goodbye. I remember in the late 1980s JR hired Larry Himes. After 4 years of drafting well and some good trades the team won 90 games in 1990 and almost made the Playoffs. After the season JR didn't renew Himes contract. JR told everybody who was willing to listen that Himes didn't get along with anybody in the organization and he didn't think Himes could take the team from Point C to Point A. The White Sox almost made the Playoffs during the 2012 season. After the 2012 season, JR made Hahn the GM. He has since taken the team from Point C to Point Y. Or has Hahn would say the team has been "Mired In Mediocrity". Any owner that was serious about winning would have not renewed Hahns contract. I think he has been the least productive GM in the modern day history of the franchise. (post 1951) I would have liked this so called rebuild a lot better if Hahn wasn't in charge of it.
At the time, Hahn was the assistant GM under Kenny, good with negotiating contracts. He was rumored to be in line for the GM position with the Dodgers. IIRC, the Sox made Hahn the GM in title only to retain him even though the power structure did not change, Kenny was still in charge, but we the general fan may never know the truth. IMO, Hahn has had total GM control starting around 2015. We don't know the organizational power flow and may never know that. So far the jury is out on Hahn's performance. Lets give the man a chance and let this current process follow through to completion. Then we can judge Hahn.
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  #328  
Old 01-13-2018, 05:09 PM
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Originally Posted by Golden Sox View Post
I couldn't believe that Hahn had his contract extended last year. I thought JR was going to tell him goodbye. I remember in the late 1980s JR hired Larry Himes. After 4 years of drafting well and some good trades the team won 90 games in 1990 and almost made the Playoffs. After the season JR didn't renew Himes contract. JR told everybody who was willing to listen that Himes didn't get along with anybody in the organization and he didn't think Himes could take the team from Point C to Point A. The White Sox almost made the Playoffs during the 2012 season. After the 2012 season, JR made Hahn the GM. He has since taken the team from Point C to Point Y. Or has Hahn would say the team has been "Mired In Mediocrity". Any owner that was serious about winning would have not renewed Hahns contract. I think he has been the least productive GM in the modern day history of the franchise. (post 1951) I would have liked this so called rebuild a lot better if Hahn wasn't in charge of it.
Whether you agree with his moves or not, you at least have to give credit to Hahn for enacting his vision and building if not the best then certainly one of the best farm systems in baseball with several prospects in the top 100 and at least three who are widely considered future all-stars.

Now if those players donít pay off and turn into the players many hope they can be then certainly Hahn deserves to be shown the door.

BUT... The management team above him believes in the direction he has taken the team and while youíve made it abundantly clear you donít trust the motives of those upper management folks, they are who we have so I guess we have to watch it play out. Good news is weíll find out in the next 2-3 years whether Hahn and the folks who sign his checks are correct or you are.

I assume you are rooting for yourself to be proven spectacularly wrong...
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  #329  
Old 01-13-2018, 05:12 PM
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Originally Posted by JB98 View Post
Yes, he did get good prospects for Eaton and Quintana, who are not in Sale's category, but are still high-end players with team-friendly contracts. I didn't see those moves as any evidence of genius, though. How hard is it to ask for another team's top prospects and receive them in exchange for proven veterans? Not hard.

Drafting and developing is hard. Putting the correct pieces around a core is hard. The Sox have been bad at those two things for an extended period of time. That has to change, or the rebuild isn't going to work.

You're right that Hahn deserves credit for securing those team-friendly extensions for those players. But for me, his resume remains light. He has a lot to prove. I don't consider any of the trades he's made to be ones that other GMs around the league couldn't have pulled off had they been placed in the same situation.
I will merely state that I agree with the bolded part to some extent but feels it needs to be modified.

Any COMPETENT GM could make those trades there are several who would not get as good a return.

If the worst we can say about Hahn is he’s a competent GM then it’s not much of an issue for me.
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  #330  
Old 01-13-2018, 06:43 PM
Andrew C White Andrew C White is offline
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Yes, he did get good prospects for Eaton and Quintana, who are not in Sale's category, but are still high-end players with team-friendly contracts. I didn't see those moves as any evidence of genius, though. How hard is it to ask for another team's top prospects and receive them in exchange for proven veterans? Not hard.
I agree... partially... but I am hard pressed to think of another GM that has actually done what Hahn did. So while it is easy to say, "Anyone could have done that" (and again, I partially agree), it is something else to actually find a comparable series of trades by one GM in one season or even across a couple of them to show that someone else has done that.
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