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  #376  
Old Today, 11:42 AM
TDog TDog is offline
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Originally Posted by XplodingScorbord View Post
No kidding. Thank god Hahn & co are smart enough to hold out for max value.
But he didn't do that with Sale. He only got four prospects, and regardless of the numbers Baseball America attaches to the prospects, they weren't major-league-ready prospects.

Hahn didn't hold out for as much as he could get with Sale. He dealt traded a franchise pitcher as if he was under the gun to get rid of him, even though he wasn't heading into his free-agent season. And the trade was met with rejoicing in the Chicago media.

Part of it. particularly from the fans who rejoiced, may have been the belief that it kicked off the sell-off. Hahn didn't have to trade Eaton either. He was under team control through 2021. Maybe the deal was simply too good to pass up, but I would hate to think Hahn doesn't plan on contending in what is now the worst division in baseball until 2022. Some of us who post here won't even be alive in 2022. Giolito, of course, is only under the White Sox control through 2022, unless they extend him, regardless of where he is playing in April.

I hope it works out. I hope Moncada becomes the corner of the franchise and Giolito equals what Sale did for the Sox. (He won't get hurt like I've read Sale will, apparently, so that;s something reason for optimism.) But for all the excitement, all the insistence that something had to be done, chances are the Sox aren't going to be any better, and probably not appreciably worse in the standings where last year they won more games than the team that featured Mike Trout. The Sox, however, will disappoint differently.

Give credit to Hahn for demanding more from a deal for Quintana, but that only leads to questioning why he didn't hold out for more for his franchise pitcher.
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  #377  
Old Today, 11:50 AM
thomas35forever's Avatar
thomas35forever thomas35forever is offline
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Originally Posted by TDog View Post
But he didn't do that with Sale. He only got four prospects, and regardless of the numbers Baseball America attaches to the prospects, they weren't major-league-ready prospects.

Hahn didn't hold out for as much as he could get with Sale. He dealt traded a franchise pitcher as if he was under the gun to get rid of him, even though he wasn't heading into his free-agent season. And the trade was met with rejoicing in the Chicago media.

Part of it. particularly from the fans who rejoiced, may have been the belief that it kicked off the sell-off. Hahn didn't have to trade Eaton either. He was under team control through 2021. Maybe the deal was simply too good to pass up, but I would hate to think Hahn doesn't plan on contending in what is now the worst division in baseball until 2022. Some of us who post here won't even be alive in 2022. Giolito, of course, is only under the White Sox control through 2022, unless they extend him, regardless of where he is playing in April.

I hope it works out. I hope Moncada becomes the corner of the franchise and Giolito equals what Sale did for the Sox. (He won't get hurt like I've read Sale will, apparently, so that;s something reason for optimism.) But for all the excitement, all the insistence that something had to be done, chances are the Sox aren't going to be any better, and probably not appreciably worse in the standings where last year they won more games than the team that featured Mike Trout. The Sox, however, will disappoint differently.

Give credit to Hahn for demanding more from a deal for Quintana, but that only leads to questioning why he didn't hold out for more for his franchise pitcher.
Are you telling me it would have been much better if Sale had started training camp here this year just so Hahn could demand more? If he had done that, both media and fans would wonder why he still hasn't traded a pitcher that could fetch an unbelievable return. The perception was that the Sox got those in the trades for both Sale and Eaton. Chances are other teams saw it that way and aren't so willing to pay a king's ransom for Quintana or anyone else right now. When the contenders start to emerge and they have obvious holes, you'll see them more willing to give up pieces for a shot at the title, especially if they think their window is small.

This is going to be a long process which will suck. I'm confident Hahn will get more done sooner than later however. We have chips to trade. He won't let them all to to waste.
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  #378  
Old Today, 11:56 AM
rdivaldi rdivaldi is online now
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Originally Posted by TDog View Post
Hahn didn't hold out for as much as he could get with Sale. He dealt traded a franchise pitcher as if he was under the gun to get rid of him, even though he wasn't heading into his free-agent season.
Nonsense, he held out for the #1 position prospect and the #3 (or 4) pitching prospect in all of baseball. The bolded part is again, this crazy conspiracy theory that you're trying to push.
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  #379  
Old Today, 12:22 PM
Noneck Noneck is offline
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Originally Posted by TDog View Post
But he didn't do that with Sale. He only got four prospects, and regardless of the numbers Baseball America attaches to the prospects, they weren't major-league-ready prospects.

Teams that would be interested in sale are in win now mode, they dont want to give up anyone that can help their team now, that includes major league ready prospects. The Sox have so many holes, a Tonmy John for Richie Allen trade would do nothing to help the Sox. Standing pat is just sos different year. What they did was all they could have done, if you think that the Sox got the wrong prospects that is very understandable but anything else is quite ridiculous.
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  #380  
Old Today, 12:31 PM
LoveYourSuit LoveYourSuit is offline
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Originally Posted by rdivaldi View Post
Nonsense, he held out for the #1 position prospect and the #3 (or 4) pitching prospect in all of baseball. The bolded part is again, this crazy conspiracy theory that you're trying to push.

By every expert's account, the Sox did real good on the Sale trade. I value that opinion more than the constant negative lunacy I read here.

Folks also need to get a grip in reality on the worth of Top Minor League talent prospects these days. Teams are more reluctant to trade away the farm than they have in the past. Hell, the Yankees and Dodgers don't even want to play that spending game anymore.

And I can guarantee the same people bitching about Hahn not holding out on Sale for more would be the first ones lined to go burn his house down had Sale stuck and then blown out his elbow.
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  #381  
Old Today, 12:34 PM
LoveYourSuit LoveYourSuit is offline
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Originally Posted by Noneck View Post
Teams that would be interested in sale are in win now mode, they dont want to give up anyone that can help their team now, that includes major league ready prospects. The Sox have so many holes, a Tonmy John for Richie Allen trade would do nothing to help the Sox. Standing pat is just sos different year. What they did was all they could have done, if you think that the Sox got the wrong prospects that is very understandable but anything else is quite ridiculous.
Exactly.

Just like say even Sale straight up for Mike Trout would not make a difference in rebuilding this team.


Sox are in dire need of cheap quantity, no expensive quality.
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  #382  
Old Today, 01:11 PM
russ99 russ99 is offline
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Originally Posted by XplodingScorbord View Post
No kidding. Thank god Hahn & co are smart enough to hold out for max value.
IMO, max value was after the winter meetings when three teams were bidding and close to dealing.

Hahn should have played them against one another and made the best deal.

A few factors make a July haul less likely than what he could have gotten in December:

1. Almost one less year in Quintana's contract, which is more significant in Q's trade value than we think.

2. A good chance of Quintana's numbers going down pitching for an underwhelming rebuilding Sox team with limited defense and run support behind him. Plus the obvious injury risk.

3. The era of a massive haul for one player at the deadline is over, many more teams are are in playoff races and are less likely to trade players they can call up in September and help them get over the hump. This is why Sale wasn't getting good enough offers in July and was moved for a better offer in December.

4. The starting pitcher free agent crop is strong next offseason, some teams would rather spend money than trade multiple high-end assets.

5. In Houston's case, GM Jeff Luhnow got burned badly in the 2015 deadline deals for Carlos Gomez and Kazmir, which made him gunshy last year at the deadline and less likely to make a blockbuster deal in-season.

6. The 4 teams (NYY, Pit,Hou, StL) in the running are not teams going all in to win a series this year, the Yankees are most likely to do so, but seem to prefer the young developing talent they've acquired the last few seasons. Plus they're most likely to break the bank for a quality FA starter next winter. Maybe if LA gets serious, but they have plenty of quality SP already.

Last edited by russ99; Today at 01:23 PM.
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  #383  
Old Today, 01:41 PM
rdivaldi rdivaldi is online now
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Originally Posted by russ99 View Post
IMO, max value was after the winter meetings when three teams were bidding and close to dealing.

Hahn should have played them against one another and made the best deal.
But there is no knowledge of what those teams were offering, so none of us have any idea of what those deals looked like. Do you think Hahn wasn't trying to play teams off each other? Of course he was, he's not some incompetent dolt.
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  #384  
Old Today, 01:57 PM
rdivaldi rdivaldi is online now
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Originally Posted by russ99 View Post
3. The era of a massive haul for one player at the deadline is over, many more teams are are in playoff races and are less likely to trade players they can call up in September and help them get over the hump. This is why Sale wasn't getting good enough offers in July and was moved for a better offer in December.
I can't agree with this. The Yankees got a pretty significant haul for Chapman and the Phillies got a significant haul for Cole Hamels the year previously. If anything, the fact that more teams are in pennant races increases the amount of teams willing to trade before the deadline. Sale wasn't moved in July because the Sox thought they were still in the race, so let's not try to rewrite history.

Quote:
4. The starting pitcher free agent crop is strong next offseason, some teams would rather spend money than trade multiple high-end assets.
It is? Who is in this supposed strong class? Arrieta? Okay, but he's been regressing as of late. Bumgarner? Nope, he has a club option. Cueto is nice, unless of course he doesn't opt out. Darvish? Okay, but he's not shown the ability to stay healthy. Who else makes this a strong free agent crop? All this talk of next year's free agent crop of pitchers is vastly overstated.

Last edited by rdivaldi; Today at 02:05 PM.
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  #385  
Old Today, 02:11 PM
Flight #24 Flight #24 is online now
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Originally Posted by TDog View Post
But he didn't do that with Sale. He only got four prospects, and regardless of the numbers Baseball America attaches to the prospects, they weren't major-league-ready prospects.

Hahn didn't hold out for as much as he could get with Sale. He dealt traded a franchise pitcher as if he was under the gun to get rid of him, even though he wasn't heading into his free-agent season. And the trade was met with rejoicing in the Chicago media.

Part of it. particularly from the fans who rejoiced, may have been the belief that it kicked off the sell-off. Hahn didn't have to trade Eaton either. He was under team control through 2021. Maybe the deal was simply too good to pass up, but I would hate to think Hahn doesn't plan on contending in what is now the worst division in baseball until 2022. Some of us who post here won't even be alive in 2022. Giolito, of course, is only under the White Sox control through 2022, unless they extend him, regardless of where he is playing in April.

I hope it works out. I hope Moncada becomes the corner of the franchise and Giolito equals what Sale did for the Sox. (He won't get hurt like I've read Sale will, apparently, so that;s something reason for optimism.) But for all the excitement, all the insistence that something had to be done, chances are the Sox aren't going to be any better, and probably not appreciably worse in the standings where last year they won more games than the team that featured Mike Trout. The Sox, however, will disappoint differently.

Give credit to Hahn for demanding more from a deal for Quintana, but that only leads to questioning why he didn't hold out for more for his franchise pitcher.

Hahn got a series of top-tier prospects for Sale/Eaton. The Sale deal generally acknowledged as a good one for the Sox and Eaton as a GREAT one for the Sox. This seems rooted in "I don't care what they got, it should have been more," as in "I want the equivalent of Mike Trout or some combo of Kris Bryant, Rougned Odor, and Felix Hernandez."

As for the complaints that Q wasn't dealt (not yours), by all accounts after the Eaton trade teams got a bit gunshy about yielding those types of hauls and weren't offering the same caliber prospects so Hahn is waiting rather than dumping for less than full value. As he should.
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