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  #76  
Old 11-12-2018, 09:06 PM
Lip Man 1 Lip Man 1 is offline
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Originally Posted by voodoochile View Post
I get it, we've had problems with our management but a lot of this stuff is outside their control also.
There is truth in this statement the biggest being the location of the stadium supposedly in a "bad neighborhood" which has been in place since the social unrest of the 1960's.

However, decisions like SportsVision, the role JR supposedly played in the collusion tactics of the mid-1980's (according to Fay Vincent in his book), the threat to move the team unless they got a new stadium with a sweetheart lease, the part JR played in the 94-95 labor impasse and of course the infamous "White Flag Trade" didn't help matters along either did they.

On balance I'd say the majority of the decisions which have hurt the franchise over the past 35+ years were more self-influcted than anything else.
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  #77  
Old 11-12-2018, 09:26 PM
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Originally Posted by Lip Man 1 View Post
There is truth in this statement the biggest being the location of the stadium supposedly in a "bad neighborhood" which has been in place since the social unrest of the 1960's.

However, decisions like SportsVision, the role JR supposedly played in the collusion tactics of the mid-1980's (according to Fay Vincent in his book), the threat to move the team unless they got a new stadium with a sweetheart lease, the part JR played in the 94-95 labor impasse and of course the infamous "White Flag Trade" didn't help matters along either did they.

On balance I'd say the majority of the decisions which have hurt the franchise over the past 35+ years were more self-influcted than anything else.
And I'd argue that if Comiskey were situated in the middle of a thriving vibrant culturally popular neighborhood they'd be drawing 2.5M people a year regardless of who owned the team or anything else. Tourism alone would add 500K to the pot every single year.

I'm not disputing the fact the Ownership has made some mistakes but as you said it's not their fault what happened demographically to the two neighborhoods in question.

Oh and I actually had the Halsted gentrification backwards. It started at Grace and Broadway where Halsted ends and moved south. That whole area got transformed as the city poured money and police into the area and cleaned it up.
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  #78  
Old 11-12-2018, 09:51 PM
Lip Man 1 Lip Man 1 is offline
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And I'd argue that if Comiskey were situated in the middle of a thriving vibrant culturally popular neighborhood they'd be drawing 2.5M people a year regardless of who owned the team or anything else. Tourism alone would add 500K to the pot every single year.
It would help in my opinion but 500K seems way high to me. And remember to the vast majority of White Sox fans and this has been shown historically, what matters is winning...period. End of discussion.

I don't think a vibrant culturally popular neighborhood where a stadium was located would change that basic fact that much.

Just my opinion.

Last edited by voodoochile; 11-13-2018 at 12:28 AM.
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  #79  
Old 11-12-2018, 10:44 PM
WhiteSox5187 WhiteSox5187 is offline
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Originally Posted by voodoochile View Post
The Cubs won the division the year after the Sox did.
So? The White Sox actually outdrew the Cubs that year.

That's one of those things that makes me wonder if the White Sox could have sustained any level of success (rather than having an owner who was a driving force behind collusion) or if the Sox had been able to market Old Comiskey the way the Cubs marketed Wrigley, would it have helped level the playing field a bit? I think it might have, but the built-in advantages the Cubs have had as a result of being owned by the Tribune Company would have made it harder for the Sox to compete.
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  #80  
Old 11-13-2018, 12:29 AM
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So? The White Sox actually outdrew the Cubs that year.

That's one of those things that makes me wonder if the White Sox could have sustained any level of success (rather than having an owner who was a driving force behind collusion) or if the Sox had been able to market Old Comiskey the way the Cubs marketed Wrigley, would it have helped level the playing field a bit? I think it might have, but the built-in advantages the Cubs have had as a result of being owned by the Tribune Company would have made it harder for the Sox to compete.
Yes, teams always draw well the year AFTER they make the playoffs. That's because season tickets sales spike in anticipation of good things the following year.
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  #81  
Old 11-13-2018, 12:30 AM
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Originally Posted by Lip Man 1 View Post
It would help in my opinion but 500K seems way high to me. And remember to the vast majority of White Sox fans and this has been shown historically, what matters is winning...period. End of discussion.

I don't think a vibrant culturally popular neighborhood where a stadium was located would change that basic fact that much.

Just my opinion.
Winning is always a good thing but the Cubs regularly draw regardless of how well the team is playing now.
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  #82  
Old 11-13-2018, 02:38 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lip Man 1 View Post
There is truth in this statement the biggest being the location of the stadium supposedly in a "bad neighborhood" which has been in place since the social unrest of the 1960's.

However, decisions like SportsVision, the role JR supposedly played in the collusion tactics of the mid-1980's (according to Fay Vincent in his book), the threat to move the team unless they got a new stadium with a sweetheart lease, the part JR played in the 94-95 labor impasse and of course the infamous "White Flag Trade" didn't help matters along either did they.

On balance I'd say the majority of the decisions which have hurt the franchise over the past 35+ years were more self-influcted than anything else.
You could probably add the current rebuild to the list of decisions that have kept the White Sox down. However, the Einhorn quote in the context of its time doesn't apply.

One thing White Sox fans ignore in arguing their ownership has been historically incompetent is that in markets with two major league teams, a majority of baseball fans believe the NL teams play "real" baseball because they don't use the DH. New York could be an exception because the Yankees are the Yankees, but in the Southland (metro LA) and the Bay Area, most fans dislike, even hate the DH. There was quite a bit of excitement a few years ago when the Giants beat the A's in Oakland and didn't use the DH. I have no doubt that a poll of baseball fans in Chicagoland would weigh against the DH.

If you're talking about 1981, when the DH was less than a decade old, there were still quite a few "forever" White Sox fans that disliked the rule. I used to hear it at the park before I left the area for the West in the late '70s. As handicaps to marketing go, it might have been a small one, but I don't hold ownership responsible for not trying to convert Cubs fans. Calling the White Sox Chicago's American League team (not the southside team) , certainly didn't hold the meaning you are assigning to it.
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  #83  
Old 11-13-2018, 06:55 AM
Frater Perdurabo Frater Perdurabo is offline
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Tribune Corporation bought the Cubs and marketed them relentlessly. Generations of grandparents watched the Cubs on WGN and bought Cubs gear for their Gen X and Millennial grandkids, who also watched the Cubs on cable-free lazy summer days. When those kids grew up and graduated as freshly-minted finance majors from Big Ten schools, they took jobs in Chicago and rented places on the North Side, and joined the Lakeview frat party atmosphere. Their disposable income drew further corporate media interest as they chased advertising revenues, and the Sun Times and other media outlets adopted the Trib’s “pro Cubs” slant.

This dynamic is greater than all the self-inflicted wounds combined, and it was destined the moment the Tribune bought the Cubs.
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  #84  
Old 11-13-2018, 08:14 AM
Mohoney Mohoney is offline
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Originally Posted by Frater Perdurabo
Tribune Corporation bought the Cubs and marketed them relentlessly. Generations of grandparents watched the Cubs on WGN and bought Cubs gear for their Gen X and Millennial grandkids, who also watched the Cubs on cable-free lazy summer days. When those kids grew up and graduated as freshly-minted finance majors from Big Ten schools, they took jobs in Chicago and rented places on the North Side, and joined the Lakeview frat party atmosphere. Their disposable income drew further corporate media interest as they chased advertising revenues, and the Sun Times and other media outlets adopted the Trib’s “pro Cubs” slant.

This dynamic is greater than all the self-inflicted wounds combined, and it was destined the moment the Tribune bought the Cubs.
The only thing missing from this post is Dr. Phil nodding silently in agreement.

Damn near ALL Chicago transplants from other Midwestern areas become Cubs fans when they arrive. Most of the state of Iowa has been “converted” because of the team’s AAA affiliate. The Cubs even made gains in places with local major-league teams, like Wisconsin and Minnesota, back when games on WGN’s national feed were not blacked-out. They also do well in northern Indiana, up until the point down south where Reds country begins.

The White Sox also got a little bit of extra national exposure via WGN, but nowhere near as much as the Cubs.
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  #85  
Old 11-13-2018, 11:30 AM
Lip Man 1 Lip Man 1 is offline
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Winning is always a good thing but the Cubs regularly draw regardless of how well the team is playing now.
Voodoo: As I'm sure you know the Cubs are the exception to the rule because of decades of brilliant marketing by John McDonough (who ironically grew up a Sox fan). They drew well in the 80's / 90's even when they were awful thanks to his marketing ideas and philosophy.
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  #86  
Old 11-13-2018, 11:33 AM
Lip Man 1 Lip Man 1 is offline
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Originally Posted by TDog View Post
You could probably add the current rebuild to the list of decisions that have kept the White Sox down. However, the Einhorn quote in the context of its time doesn't apply.

One thing White Sox fans ignore in arguing their ownership has been historically incompetent is that in markets with two major league teams, a majority of baseball fans believe the NL teams play "real" baseball because they don't use the DH. New York could be an exception because the Yankees are the Yankees, but in the Southland (metro LA) and the Bay Area, most fans dislike, even hate the DH. There was quite a bit of excitement a few years ago when the Giants beat the A's in Oakland and didn't use the DH. I have no doubt that a poll of baseball fans in Chicagoland would weigh against the DH.

If you're talking about 1981, when the DH was less than a decade old, there were still quite a few "forever" White Sox fans that disliked the rule. I used to hear it at the park before I left the area for the West in the late '70s. As handicaps to marketing go, it might have been a small one, but I don't hold ownership responsible for not trying to convert Cubs fans. Calling the White Sox Chicago's American League team (not the southside team) , certainly didn't hold the meaning you are assigning to it.
We will just have to disagree based on conversations over the years with folks in the organization. EE really did think that he could persuade Cub fans to at least support the Sox from time to time, increase revenue and increase possible subscribers to SportsVision.

And again with respect, I think the DH factor has very, very, very little to do with things.
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  #87  
Old 11-15-2018, 07:11 PM
Tragg Tragg is offline
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IMO
1)The Cubs going WGN National made the Cubs what they are..with an assist from
2)the new happy and chipper Harry Caray and
3)The Sox going to Sports Vision.
4)What also hurt is that a decade earlier, somehow the Cubs stayed East in Divisional Realignment and stayed with top Rival. The Sox moved West and lost the games against the Tigers, RedSox and Yankees.
What's disappointing is that this all came to pass with a new ownership group that seemed to be refreshing change from the past. When Einhorn and Reinsdorf came took over the team, they were big spenders: Floyd Bannister, Carlton Fisk. They hired an interesting young manager.
But then they turned to what is today, nearly 40 years later, their continued weakness: front office. They fire the good ones, keep the non-producers far too long.
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  #88  
Old 11-15-2018, 07:25 PM
Noneck Noneck is offline
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They hired an interesting young manager.



Who was that?
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  #89  
Old 11-15-2018, 07:36 PM
A. Cavatica A. Cavatica is offline
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Who was that?
Tony LaRussa.
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  #90  
Old 11-15-2018, 07:51 PM
Lip Man 1 Lip Man 1 is offline
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They hired an interesting young manager.
I guess they really didn't hire Tony. That's one of those grey areas. Veeck did. EE and JR retained him because of the timing of things when they got the club.

From my interview with Tony:

TLR: “When they took over, it wasn’t guaranteed that I’d stay as the manager. I know that both Bill and Roland went to bat for me and they (Reinsdorf and Einhorn) got control of the club so late. It was only a month to go before spring training started that it wouldn’t have made sense for them to try to find someone else at that point in time. I came to Chicago to meet them, explained my thoughts and they offered me the job. They showed confidence in me and support through good times and bad and that’s something I’ll never forget.”
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